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Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)

 
ToyTV
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Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
I am curious about believers views of free will vs predestination as a salvation issue. Were some chosen and others not prior to creation?

I have always been a free will believer. But toight I got into a debate with a predestination believer.


I am curious as to others insight on the matter.


Do you believe saved people have always been saved from the beginning? Or is it a choice?
ac
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05/18/2012 12:10 AM
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
The question actually is kind of like 'what is the square root of -1', it is not real. In that, yes God knows all our fates but we are not predestined, as God exists in all times simultaneously, he sees the decisions we make unfold and transcends time; we cannot comprehend this due to our 3 dimensional limitations.
ToyTV  (OP)

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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
The question actually is kind of like 'what is the square root of -1', it is not real. In that, yes God knows all our fates but we are not predestined, as God exists in all times simultaneously, he sees the decisions we make unfold and transcends time; we cannot comprehend this due to our 3 dimensional limitations.
 Quoting: ac 4280767


Yes, I understand that.

But this person believed that people who are "saved," were saved from the beginning. Their salvation was not their choice. And likewise, a person who was not predestined to be saved, could never be.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
You have a choice to live by the brains will, or the spirits will. Its a no brainer.
ToyTV  (OP)

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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
You have a choice to live by the brains will, or the spirits will. Its a no brainer.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1126704


Nice pun.
ToyTV  (OP)

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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
anyone?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
John Calvin and Martin Luther both taught that we have no free will....

( 2 Thessalonians 2:11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart" (Jeremiah 1:5)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,..." (Eph. 1:3-5)

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Rom. 8:28-30)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
It's all gonna work out fine for everyone in the end
ToyTV  (OP)

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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
John Calvin and Martin Luther both taught that we have no free will....

( 2 Thessalonians 2:11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart" (Jeremiah 1:5)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,..." (Eph. 1:3-5)

"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Rom. 8:28-30)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16193479


Yes, those are some of the verses he gave me.

Interesting. Thanks.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
Predestined according to foreknowledge with free will.

In other words, the Creator knows all that will be His.

He also has the right to use vessels of dishonor anyway He chooses.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Election and predestination are based upon the foreknowledge of Elohim.

He knows those that are His from the very beginning.

Everyone has free will, and some will accept and some will refuse the GIFT of Elohim. The point is, YHVH knew way ahead of time.
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ratdance
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
think about Saul of Tarsus. he was on his way to Damascus to murder Christians. he didn't repent, Jesus chose him and pretty much forced him to change direction. free will? where?
ToyTV  (OP)

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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ratdance
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15492911



lol


good one.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ratdance
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15492911



lol


good one.
 Quoting: ToyTV


Your would think that.
Fidokrab

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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
You had a debate with a Calvinist, who believe God chooses who and who isn't, and free will is a secondary thing. This is a seriously wicked doctrine and must be exposed. Here's a YouTube channel based on exposing Calvinism (predestinationists).

[link to www.youtube.com]
The false gospel: If you don't continually perform, you're out.

The true Gospel: Believe.
ToyTV  (OP)

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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ratdance
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15492911



lol


good one.
 Quoting: ToyTV


Your would think that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15492911



yep...I really did lol.

I completely understand that pov.
PaaatRiot101

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05/18/2012 01:18 AM
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
All Religions have "some" truths and "some" falsehoods, and no religion alone is complete...For example Christians believe there is a "soul" and Buddhists believe souls reincarnate, many religions speak of "levels" ...there are also "Guardians", or Angels if you prefer...God is not in a box, God is SPIRITUAL. It is time to wake up now for many...Some just "Know" these things, and like me they have been "visited" in their youth...we just "know" stuff....and as we go through life it is a constantly evolving process of Deja Vu...and recessed memories are jarred as time for them to be known approaches... doubt nothing, question everything. GOD is Real...but He is NOT a RELIGION. Think outside the box w/ a completely open mind> FEEL< GO LOOK AT THE STARS IN THE SKY> FEEL> The memories are there in most...best I can explain right now, but the portal Templars will begin to open May 20th, and remain open (If the Elders can retain power until as late as 2023...depending< They really need our thoughts, our good thoughts to accomplish this ...bad forces are trying to manipulate the portals, shift them, change destiny...) THINK GOOD AND POSITIVE THOUGHTS> There is another world waiting out there...some may call it Heaven, Nirvana... ery confusing but Fear Not for ye though you may walk through the valley of the shadow of death FEAR NO EVIL for HE IS WITH YOU< HIS ROD AND HIS STAFF ( Teachings and corrections) will comfort you. He knows the number of our days> Some will have MISSIONS that they must accomplish others I am unclear, But Good Vibrations are needed. Let All you do be done with a good heart and good intentions. Peace all
They only Expose what they can no longer hide>>>
And it happens when we take the time to bitch at the MSM's as well as each other.
Have a nice day :)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
FREE WILL vs PREDESTINATION - THE MYSTERY OF GOD
[link to www.herealittletherealittle.net]
Mr_Electric

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05/18/2012 01:24 AM

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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
The bible teaches predestination clearly. I believe we feel like we have free will, but God is Sovereign.

A man may choose his path, but his FOOTSTEPS are ORDERED by the LORD.

Give this a listen.....

Predestined: Is God Unjust??
[link to www.truthstreamoasis.com]
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ratdance
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15492911



lol


good one.
 Quoting: ToyTV


Your would think that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15492911



yep...I really did lol.

I completely understand that pov.
 Quoting: ToyTV


Yeah, I know, I think we all know. I can not count the number of times you have done it.

another do You are not very bright, eh?
Mr_Electric

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05/18/2012 01:26 AM

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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
The Sovereignty of God
(Read Romans 9 carefully)


John 6:44
No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him and I will raise him up the last day. The word draw translated in the original Greek is “drag.” God totally chooses us.

Romans 3
Shows biblical proof that we are dead corpses-no dead person could want or choose God.

Ephesians 2:11
(Saved by Grace) And you He hath quickened who were dead in trespass and sins. The word quickened translated in the original Greek is “given life.” Verse 2 tells us clearly how dead and sinful we are till He gives us life. Verse 5 also tells us how dead we are in sin.

Ephesians 2:8&9
The word Grace translated is the divine influence upon the heart and it’s reflection in the life. In reading these verses very carefully, we can see that if we choose to be saved it then becomes a work and this is contrary to what the bible is teaching here. Verse 10 – ordained: translated means fit up in advance.

Philippians 2:13
Makes it clear: For it is God which worked in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

John 11:11
(Lazarus) The Lord told the disciples that He would wake Lazarus up. I personally doubt that if Lazarus had the choice, which it is clear that he did not, that he would have never chose to come back to this Earth.


Know What You Believe and Why

When we study the bible we always take it literally with a deeper spiritual meaning spiritually. This portion of scripture is very meaningful in this area.

Luke 7:13-15
The Lord raised the widow’s son from the dead. Notice He had compassion on her. She never even asked Him. Christ chooses, we take no part – our flesh wants to think we did. Conclusion – only the Lord can raise us from the dead spiritually. All the power, honor, and glory belong to Him.


Ephesians 1:4, 5, 11
Greek translation: Adoption is to place. Predestination is to limit in advance.

I Peter 2:21
Follow in Christ’s footsteps, not men. Our service to the Lord is what is in our hearts. He knows our capacity.

I Thessalonians 2:4
Trust in the Lord and the entire word of God only. People’s opinion can confuse us. The word is the final authority. If we have really lined ourselves up under the authority of the Lord, His word becomes the whole root of our faith. The people that teach or want to suffocate us are going to die eventually. People are temporal, God is eternal (Isaiah 51:12).

I Corinthians 2:4-5
(Enticing words) The Gospel can be sugar-coated with lots of enticing words.

II Peter 3:18
(Growing) Greek translations:
Grace: The divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in life.
Knowledge: Understanding and awareness of the truth of the Lord.

Psalm 49:35
Total surrender and a good cure for pride – He is in total control

Scripture References

Elect: Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9 & 22
Matthew 24:24 & 31
Mark 13:22 & 27
Luke 18:7
Romans 8:33
Colossians 3:12
I Timothy 5:21
Titus 1:1
I Peter 1:2, 2:1
II John 1:13

Elected: I Peter5:13

Election: Romans 9:11, 11:15, 7:28

Elect’s: Matthew 24:23
Mark 13:20
II Timothy 2:10

Predestinate: Romans 8:29-30

Predestinated: Ephesians 1:5 & 11

Ordained: Habakkuk 1:12
Matthew 3:4
John 15:16
Acts 13:48
Jeremiah 1:12
Romans 13:1
I Corinthians 2:7

Chosen: Matthew 20:16, 22:14
Mark 13:20
John 6:70, 13:18, 15:16 & 19
II Thessalonians 2:13
II Timothy 2:4
I Peter 2:4 & 9



This study can be and is totally backed up by scripture. The Holy Spirit is the teacher; the bible is its own interpreter.
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
ToyTV  (OP)

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05/18/2012 01:33 AM
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
think about Saul of Tarsus. he was on his way to Damascus to murder Christians. he didn't repent, Jesus chose him and pretty much forced him to change direction. free will? where?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16232858


I'm not sure I believe Paul was what he claimed he was.

He contradicts messiah multiple times. Why would he do that?
ToyTV  (OP)

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05/18/2012 01:33 AM
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
The bible teaches predestination clearly. I believe we feel like we have free will, but God is Sovereign.

A man may choose his path, but his FOOTSTEPS are ORDERED by the LORD.

Give this a listen.....

Predestined: Is God Unjust??
[link to www.truthstreamoasis.com]
 Quoting: Mr_Electric


Thank you. Going to check it out now.

Last Edited by ToyTV on 05/18/2012 01:34 AM
ToyTV  (OP)

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05/18/2012 01:36 AM
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
...



lol


good one.
 Quoting: ToyTV


Your would think that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15492911



yep...I really did lol.

I completely understand that pov.
 Quoting: ToyTV


Yeah, I know, I think we all know. I can not count the number of times you have done it.

another do You are not very bright, eh?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15492911


2 times. Both today.

That's why I laughed. I appreciate you calling me out. I get it. You're not too bright either huh?
ToyTV  (OP)

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05/18/2012 01:39 AM
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
The Sovereignty of God
(Read Romans 9 carefully)


John 6:44
No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him and I will raise him up the last day. The word draw translated in the original Greek is “drag.” God totally chooses us.

Romans 3
Shows biblical proof that we are dead corpses-no dead person could want or choose God.

Ephesians 2:11
(Saved by Grace) And you He hath quickened who were dead in trespass and sins. The word quickened translated in the original Greek is “given life.” Verse 2 tells us clearly how dead and sinful we are till He gives us life. Verse 5 also tells us how dead we are in sin.

Ephesians 2:8&9
The word Grace translated is the divine influence upon the heart and it’s reflection in the life. In reading these verses very carefully, we can see that if we choose to be saved it then becomes a work and this is contrary to what the bible is teaching here. Verse 10 – ordained: translated means fit up in advance.

Philippians 2:13
Makes it clear: For it is God which worked in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

John 11:11
(Lazarus) The Lord told the disciples that He would wake Lazarus up. I personally doubt that if Lazarus had the choice, which it is clear that he did not, that he would have never chose to come back to this Earth.


Know What You Believe and Why

When we study the bible we always take it literally with a deeper spiritual meaning spiritually. This portion of scripture is very meaningful in this area.

Luke 7:13-15
The Lord raised the widow’s son from the dead. Notice He had compassion on her. She never even asked Him. Christ chooses, we take no part – our flesh wants to think we did. Conclusion – only the Lord can raise us from the dead spiritually. All the power, honor, and glory belong to Him.


Ephesians 1:4, 5, 11
Greek translation: Adoption is to place. Predestination is to limit in advance.

I Peter 2:21
Follow in Christ’s footsteps, not men. Our service to the Lord is what is in our hearts. He knows our capacity.

I Thessalonians 2:4
Trust in the Lord and the entire word of God only. People’s opinion can confuse us. The word is the final authority. If we have really lined ourselves up under the authority of the Lord, His word becomes the whole root of our faith. The people that teach or want to suffocate us are going to die eventually. People are temporal, God is eternal (Isaiah 51:12).

I Corinthians 2:4-5
(Enticing words) The Gospel can be sugar-coated with lots of enticing words.

II Peter 3:18
(Growing) Greek translations:
Grace: The divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in life.
Knowledge: Understanding and awareness of the truth of the Lord.

Psalm 49:35
Total surrender and a good cure for pride – He is in total control

Scripture References

Elect: Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9 & 22
Matthew 24:24 & 31
Mark 13:22 & 27
Luke 18:7
Romans 8:33
Colossians 3:12
I Timothy 5:21
Titus 1:1
I Peter 1:2, 2:1
II John 1:13

Elected: I Peter5:13

Election: Romans 9:11, 11:15, 7:28

Elect’s: Matthew 24:23
Mark 13:20
II Timothy 2:10

Predestinate: Romans 8:29-30

Predestinated: Ephesians 1:5 & 11

Ordained: Habakkuk 1:12
Matthew 3:4
John 15:16
Acts 13:48
Jeremiah 1:12
Romans 13:1
I Corinthians 2:7

Chosen: Matthew 20:16, 22:14
Mark 13:20
John 6:70, 13:18, 15:16 & 19
II Thessalonians 2:13
II Timothy 2:4
I Peter 2:4 & 9



This study can be and is totally backed up by scripture. The Holy Spirit is the teacher; the bible is its own interpreter.
 Quoting: Mr_Electric


I intend to study this out...but as of right now, this moment...I kind of reject Paul. I have plenty of reasons to do so, and most of the scripture you posted is Paul. So, it doesn't carry too much weight for me right now.
Mr_Electric

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05/18/2012 01:42 AM

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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
Paul didn't contradict Christ... he was SENT by Christ. His calling was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. God was opening salvation to ALL, not just the jewish people. This is why his message "seemed" to contradict at times.

Christ mainly spoke to the lost sheep of Israel. But they rejected Him and that is when salvation came to the Gentiles and this is why God called Saul of Tarsus into action.

Paul wrote much of the New Testament. It figures that in the last days that the attacks would focus FIRST on Christ, then on to Paul. Open your eyes. Christ told us beforehand these things would happen. He said that many would be "offended" by His name.

I know where my faith is. I'm just ridin' the storm out.....



[link to www.youtube.com]
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
Mr_Electric

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05/18/2012 01:50 AM

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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
Even Peter affirms Paul's teachings....

2Pe 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.

2Pe 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Don't let these Anti-Paultards sway your faith, my friend. The winds are blowing, the whirlwind is having it's way.... shaking the "chaff" out of the wheat.

Everyone's faith is being tested in this day, that is why you see so many attacks on scripture coming from all directions.

Hold on to the pure doctrines that were handed down to all the saints through the Holy Scriptures.

You've got to believe in something, or you'll fall for anything.

Selah. (Meditate on this..)
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
ToyTV  (OP)

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05/18/2012 01:55 AM
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
Paul didn't contradict Christ... he was SENT by Christ. His calling was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. God was opening salvation to ALL, not just the jewish people. This is why his message "seemed" to contradict at times.

Christ mainly spoke to the lost sheep of Israel. But they rejected Him and that is when salvation came to the Gentiles and this is why God called Saul of Tarsus into action.

Paul wrote much of the New Testament. It figures that in the last days that the attacks would focus FIRST on Christ, then on to Paul. Open your eyes. Christ told us beforehand these things would happen. He said that many would be "offended" by His name.

I know where my faith is. I'm just ridin' the storm out.....



[link to www.youtube.com]
 Quoting: Mr_Electric


I don't reject Messiah. But you would think if Christ was planning on appointing Paul, he might have given an indication there would be a 13th apostle. To my knowledge He didn't. In fact, he warned of people coming in His name. Who knows what entity Paul ran into on the road? I don't...I wasn't there. And the only witness was....Paul.

I know where my faith is too. in Yeshua...Christ...God the Father....not Paul. Who needs Paul?
Mr_Electric

User ID: 16145980
Australia
05/18/2012 02:03 AM

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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
Paul didn't contradict Christ... he was SENT by Christ. His calling was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. God was opening salvation to ALL, not just the jewish people. This is why his message "seemed" to contradict at times.

Christ mainly spoke to the lost sheep of Israel. But they rejected Him and that is when salvation came to the Gentiles and this is why God called Saul of Tarsus into action.

Paul wrote much of the New Testament. It figures that in the last days that the attacks would focus FIRST on Christ, then on to Paul. Open your eyes. Christ told us beforehand these things would happen. He said that many would be "offended" by His name.

I know where my faith is. I'm just ridin' the storm out.....



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 Quoting: Mr_Electric


I don't reject Messiah. But you would think if Christ was planning on appointing Paul, he might have given an indication there would be a 13th apostle. To my knowledge He didn't. In fact, he warned of people coming in His name. Who knows what entity Paul ran into on the road? I don't...I wasn't there. And the only witness was....Paul.

I know where my faith is too. in Yeshua...Christ...God the Father....not Paul. Who needs Paul?
 Quoting: ToyTV


Did you read my previous post? :-)

If you throw out Paul, you have to throw out Peter and the other disciples' as well as they affirm Paul's apostle-ship.

Your argument isn't valid as if you applied what you said to others who came in Christ's name, you'd have to doubt them too. What a sad place to be.

Christ said you would know them by their fruits. Examine Paul's writings carefully and you will see that he exalts Yeshua (Jesus) completely ALL the time.

His words resonate in our hearts and point us to salvation that cannot be found through works of the law (the law was given to draw sin to the surface so it could be seen), but only through the blood of Christ.

By observing the law, no one will be justified. Justification only comes through faith in Christ. That's it, pure and simple. Let God sort out those who take advantage of God's grace and those who sit at the cross in humility.

Religious people are the ones who like to attack Paul (JUST LIKE THEY DID to Christ!). It is in man's heart to justify HIMSELF ( a side effect of guilt ).

Christ and His message DISARMS that hidden pride to justify.

If you study Christ's message, you will see that Paul expounded on the message of Christ and brought that light to the Gentiles.

Who needs Paul? I do, because Christ directly commissioned him and it's obvious to anyone that studies his writings that it bears the mark of Christ's words.

The Holy Spirit confirms it in my spirit and the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. :-)
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
ToyTV  (OP)

User ID: 16247026
United States
05/18/2012 02:04 AM
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Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
This is Paul:

Romans 13:

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.



Are our governing authorities doing the will of God?

What about the governing authorities in Pauls day? Nero? Caeser? Didn't they want to be worshiped as God?

Last Edited by ToyTV on 05/18/2012 02:11 AM





GLP