Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 2,014 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 563,365
Pageviews Today: 1,391,453Threads Today: 839Posts Today: 17,600
09:14 PM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)

 
ToyTV  (OP)

User ID: 16247026
United States
05/18/2012 02:10 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
How would ignoring Paul do me any harm?

I have the Law and the prophets, and I have the teachings of God in the flesh...Yeshua the salvation of the world.

What more do I need?
Mr_Electric

User ID: 16145980
Australia
05/18/2012 02:14 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
This is Paul:

Romans 13:

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is Godís servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are Godís servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are Godís servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.



Our our governing authorities doing the will of God?

What about the governing authorities in Pauls day? Nero? Caeser? Didn't they want to be worshiped as God?
 Quoting: ToyTV


Conspiracy has taken you a bit to far, I think. It's all about rebellion with conspiracy with this crowd. This is why God said in Isaiah 8...

Fear God
11 The LORD spoke to me with his strong hand upon me, warning me not to follow the way of this people. He said:

12 ďDo not call conspiracy
everything that these people call conspiracy ;
do not fear what they fear,
and do not dread it.
13 The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread,
14 and he will be a sanctuary;
but for both houses of Israel he will be
a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.
And for the people of Jerusalem he will be
a trap and a snare.
15 Many of them will stumble;
they will fall and be broken,
they will be snared and captured.Ē

16 Bind up the testimony
and seal up the law among my disciples.
17 I will wait for the LORD,
who is hiding his face from the house of Jacob.
I will put my trust in him.
============================

Paul is not telling us here to bow down and worship Caesar or anything like that. He's just telling believers to be good people as Christ would want us to be.

Even Jesus when asked about taxes said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...". He even had a coin appear in a fish's mouth for Peter so he could pay both their taxes.

So there you go. Paul is just repeating and expounding upon what Christ said.

It's not an issue of whether the govt is evil or not. It's an issue of living our lives among the heathen so that they will not have excuse to talk bad about us and therefore bring slander on the name of Christ.

Don't let the rebellious spirit of conspiracy grip you in such a way that it clouds your understanding of the truth of scripture. This is so important or you will be swayed into unbelief which is the end goal of conspiracy and one of the reasons it was brought out into the open.

To destroy trust in anything and therefore throw truth to the ground and trample on it.
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 14714091
India
05/18/2012 02:15 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
I am curious about believers views of free will vs predestination as a salvation issue. Were some chosen and others not prior to creation?

I have always been a free will believer. But toight I got into a debate with a predestination believer.


I am curious as to others insight on the matter.


Do you believe saved people have always been saved from the beginning? Or is it a choice?
 Quoting: ToyTV


i will tell you some truths from my own life:

i never believed in predestination but 4 yrs back an old astrologer lady told me something about my future and it became true.now i am so depressed,i cant decide whether human beings have any free will.
ToyTV  (OP)

User ID: 16247026
United States
05/18/2012 02:22 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
I am curious about believers views of free will vs predestination as a salvation issue. Were some chosen and others not prior to creation?

I have always been a free will believer. But toight I got into a debate with a predestination believer.


I am curious as to others insight on the matter.


Do you believe saved people have always been saved from the beginning? Or is it a choice?
 Quoting: ToyTV


i will tell you some truths from my own life:

i never believed in predestination but 4 yrs back an old astrologer lady told me something about my future and it became true.now i am so depressed,i cant decide whether human beings have any free will.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14714091


Well, that's kind of my problem. (Mr.Electric take note):


Whether Paul is legit or not, cannot shake my faith. But if God created some people to not be saved (salvation by predstination), and there is no chance of salvation for them, that's a shakable offense. even if I am saved, why do I care? If all do not have the chance for the same, why would I want to serve a God who would not give all a chance?
Mr_Electric

User ID: 16145980
Australia
05/18/2012 02:27 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
I am curious about believers views of free will vs predestination as a salvation issue. Were some chosen and others not prior to creation?

I have always been a free will believer. But toight I got into a debate with a predestination believer.


I am curious as to others insight on the matter.


Do you believe saved people have always been saved from the beginning? Or is it a choice?
 Quoting: ToyTV


i will tell you some truths from my own life:

i never believed in predestination but 4 yrs back an old astrologer lady told me something about my future and it became true.now i am so depressed,i cant decide whether human beings have any free will.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14714091


You need not worry my friend... for when you get to know the heart of God, you will know that HE IS GOOD THROUGH AND THROUGH and will not do anything to anyone that is evil.

This is what I have learned. To be comfortable with God's sovereignty in predestination, one only has to truly trust the motives and heart of God (YHWH) Himself.

This is what is on trial nowadays and why many thrash against the LORD. They do NOT trust His heart and they SUSPECT HIS MOTIVES. How very sad.

It was Satan who first planted the seed of doubt into man's heart about God and the MOTIVE of God. This is seeing TOTAL FRUITION in our day.

Satan told Adam and Eve in the garden that their TOTAL TRUST in God's words (heart and motive) was the REASON God had them under His TOTAL CONTROL. (Sound familiar???)

He told them that the moment they disobeyed and ate the fruit that their eyes would be OPENED (sound familiar??) and they would know good and evil and BE AS GOD.... and that God wanted to HIDE THIS FROM THEM.

Really what he was telling them is that the trust between them and God would be destroyed. They wouldn't believe Him anymore and that they would be able to use this "new" state of mind to...

DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHAT WAS GOOD AND WHAT WAS EVIL. To make up their own rules.

Don't believe Satan, my friend. Trust in the heart of God for it is RIGHTEOUS AND GOOD and you will find that God is leading you into His kingdom for YOUR GOOD!!

We may have to traverse dark valleys through pain and suffering, but even a pearl is formed through the suffering of the clam when sand enters the shell and irritates the soft clam flesh. The clam excretes a substance to sooth it and this is what forms the PEARL.

This is why Christ said that the gates of Heaven were likened to PEARLS.

We enter through suffering. It produces in us something that is of ETERNAL VALUE.

This is why NOT MANY choose the NARROW WAY. They do NOT want to go through any suffering!

Open the eyes of your understanding back to the truth, the truth that was BEFORE the lie became the truth. ;-)

God bless!
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
ToyTV  (OP)

User ID: 16247026
United States
05/18/2012 02:28 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
And Mr. Electric,

I mean all due respect, I know you are trying to help...and I appreciate it. For I am, above all, seeking truth.

I am listening to the link you sent me. I've heard this guy before....Amos Riddly...I don't have anything against him per se...but you do know his name is Soma...right?
Mr_Electric

User ID: 16145980
Australia
05/18/2012 02:39 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
Listen thoroughly to the podcast I did on TruthStream Oasis. Give it a listen first, OP. :-)

The stumbling block for people to understand predestination is always focused on this point....

"But how can God be righteous and predestine that some would never be written in the Lamb's Book of Life..???"

This IS what Romans 9 is ALL ABOUT!

Is God Unjust if He does this????

Paul asks that question and then answers it.

He says... "Who are you O MAN to reply against GOD saying... why did you make me like this??"

"Has NOT the POTTER power over the same lump of clay to make some vessels fitted for honor and some vessels fitted for destruction??" (I am paraphrasing here...)

The REAL issue that Romans 9 is trying to bring out of the DEPTHS of many people's hearts (that THEY THEMSELVES CANNOT SEE) is this.....

IF GOD IS GOD, and He created all things.... doesn't HE have the RIGHT to do whatever He wants with His own creation??

Watch the REBELLION SOAR TO THE SURFACE AND ROAR after that question is asked BABY!!!


Romans 9 is an ointment that draws rebellion to God in people's hearts STRAIGHT to the surface where it can be seen, if one will allow it to be seen.

ME???

I'm like Job who said......

Job 13:15.... "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him.."

And in doing so, you have passed the test of faith for salvation is of faith.

The whole message of salvation is summed up this verse.

"God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

Selah. (Meditate on this)
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
Mr_Electric

User ID: 16145980
Australia
05/18/2012 02:42 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
And Mr. Electric,

I mean all due respect, I know you are trying to help...and I appreciate it. For I am, above all, seeking truth.

I am listening to the link you sent me. I've heard this guy before....Amos Riddly...I don't have anything against him per se...but you do know his name is Soma...right?
 Quoting: ToyTV


Mr. Electric IS Amos Ridley... hahhaaha. That's me. ;-)

And it's a radio name I made up for TruthStream because I like the book of Amos and was born in Ridley Park, PA.

Come out of the rabbit hole, my friend. Stop reading stuff backwards and thinking it means something.

SOS backwards means SOS. LOL

You're right. Just trying to help. I truly believe that anyone who has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them will have to admit this resonates as truth with them.

It's scriptural. :-)
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
Mr_Electric

User ID: 16145980
Australia
05/18/2012 02:45 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
And by the way, if Soma means "sleep", then if it is REVERSED (AMOS)it should mean "WAKE UP!!". LOL

It's all good. I really care about the truth of God and helping people. I just offer it up. I don't shove it down people's throats and kick them if they don't agree.

I'm just freely giving what I freely received. ;-)

hf
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
ToyTV  (OP)

User ID: 16247026
United States
05/18/2012 02:49 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
And by the way, if Soma means "sleep", then if it is REVERSED (AMOS)it should mean "WAKE UP!!". LOL

It's all good. I really care about the truth of God and helping people. I just offer it up. I don't shove it down people's throats and kick them if they don't agree.

I'm just freely giving what I freely received. ;-)

hf
 Quoting: Mr_Electric


Touche.

I have to admit, at the thought of some are predestined to be cast into the lake, I feel a sense of rebellion. I don't want to. Does that mean I am not saved?...and destined to perish?

If so, then why should I even bother caring any further?
Mr_Electric

User ID: 16145980
Australia
05/18/2012 03:12 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
Touche.

I have to admit, at the thought of some are predestined to be cast into the lake, I feel a sense of rebellion. I don't want to. Does that mean I am not saved?...and destined to perish?

If so, then why should I even bother caring any further?
 Quoting: ToyTV


Wow, a display of open-ness and humility! I have not found such like this in all of GLP!! :-)

I cannot make a judgment on whether you are saved or not, but....

I'd have to say the very fact that you are open to questioning your own salvation and that you are so concerned about it... this smells of the work of the Holy Spirit in someone's heart. It's a fragrant beginning that is very familiar to me as I went through the same process before God revealed Himself to me through Yeshua (Who is the Father dwelling in the flesh body).

It's not for man to worry about what God has predestined according to the purpose of His own good will.

It's just up to man to respond to the working of the Holy Spirit in calling them to repentance from rebellion to God's authority over their lives.

Just trust the LORD with ALL YOUR HEART, lean NOT on YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING...

In all your ways ACKNOWLEDGE HIM and He will direct your paths.

Proverbs 3:5,6

Keep studying and asking the LORD HIMSELF to reveal truth to you. No man can do this. As Paul said, he did not receive this revelation (his message) from ANY MAN. He received it directly from Christ (The Holy Spirit).

Christ told us the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth. Not man. Hopefully I have spoken (and not tainted) what the Holy Spirit laid on my heart to say here.

I think it was destined for you to post this and for me to see it and respond.

God works ALL things TOGETHER for GOOD to those who LOVE GOD and to those who are CALLED according to HIS PURPOSE.

Romans 8:28!!!

hf
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
Mr_Electric

User ID: 16145980
Australia
05/18/2012 03:26 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
Gotta jet for a bit now, OP. It's getting around dinner time over here in Oz. Gonna order some pizza and spend time with the family.

I'll check back in later maybe.

So good chatting and fellowshipping with you! :-)

God bless!

Others should weigh in and keep this thread alive. It's such an interesting and volatile subject. But it's one that I feel is very important.

Here's the link to my radio show again on TruthStream if anyone wants to give it a listen. I should do another one. Any of you out there qualified to do a debate on the free will side? Hit me up.

Predestination: Is God Unjust??
[link to www.truthstreamoasis.com]

Or just click to the audio:
[link to media.blubrry.com]
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
ToyTV  (OP)

User ID: 16247026
United States
05/18/2012 03:33 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
I think it was destined for you to post this and for me to see it and respond.


 Quoting: Mr_Electric



Yes, I feel that too.

Thanks man.

Catch you later.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 5651730
United States
05/18/2012 04:06 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
Wrote a pretty comprehensive write-up on Fate vs Free Will here:
[link to houseofxen.wordpress.com]
Mr_Electric

User ID: 16145980
Australia
05/18/2012 04:13 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
Hey OP, I found this online. I read this book when I was younger and it really helped see the truth of the Sovereignty of God.

If you really want something meaty that digs into the issue, this is your book..

Arthur W. Pink- The Sovereignty of God
[link to www.reformed.org]

Another good one is:
[link to www.reformed.org]
[The time of Christ's return is drawing near. Repent of your sins and be reconciled to God the Father through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The days of salvation are still here. Cry out to God and believe on Jesus while there is still time.]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 16279700
Australia
05/18/2012 04:31 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
How would ignoring Paul do me any harm?

I have the Law and the prophets, and I have the teachings of God in the flesh...Yeshua the salvation of the world.

What more do I need?
 Quoting: ToyTV


A functioning brain.

Then you wont need all that other shit.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1366745
United Kingdom
05/18/2012 04:37 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers)
Free will. Gods crew, then a mess, Gods crew making it back to God





GLP