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| 12:11 AM | ||
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Free will versus predestination | |
| daretospeak
Offer Upgrade  User ID: 1469985  United Kingdom07/16/2011 08:01 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1175381  Slovakia07/16/2011 08:06 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | there is no such thing as free will. Even your ass is bigger boss than you, if it commands, you must obey, otherwise...On the other hand even the ass is not free, because it must accompany you everywhere you go. If you will find somewhere some free will, let us know. I would like to ain a grain, too.  |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1451386  France07/16/2011 08:13 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | there is no such thing as free will. Even your ass is bigger boss than you, if it commands, you must obey, otherwise...On the other hand even the ass is not free, because it must accompany you everywhere you go. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1175381If you will find somewhere some free will, let us know. I would like to ain a grain, too.  |
| Kirk
User ID: 1363969  United States07/16/2011 08:49 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1470030 United States07/16/2011 08:50 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| daretospeak
(OP) User ID: 1469985 United Kingdom07/16/2011 08:53 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | If you have had de ja vu before you must question free will. The feelong that you have done this before happens because you have done this before. And you will make the same decisions for eternity. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1470030de ja vu is simply being where you are supposed to be, doing exactly what you are supposed to be doing at the time you are supposed to be doing it. It doesnt mean that you have done it before...just a confirmation that you are on track. Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that live, but Christ now lives in me and the life I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1173150  Netherlands07/16/2011 08:53 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | If you have had de ja vu before you must question free will. The feelong that you have done this before happens because you have done this before. And you will make the same decisions for eternity. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1470030free will is with the greath of god as one the or a ether isnt that eternity isnt here immortals have no free will just ..they like 2bully munch |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1173150 Netherlands07/16/2011 08:56 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1173150 Netherlands07/16/2011 08:56 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1069318 United States07/16/2011 09:00 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | God knows the end from the beginning, He also gave us free choice, their are certain events in time that we are appointed for, our Character building choices, be that good or bad, are the vehicle to position ourselves at that moment of predestination. That is what predestination is, a destination point in time. The question is, will you meet at that point, based on your ability to make wise choices? Quoting: daretospeakWe do have free will, just as Adam and Eve did in the garden, just as certain people on this forum do when they blaspheme God's name... its free will. But when God says he knows the beginning from the end, you have to understand that "time" is a created element. God is outside of time. He created it and it wouldn't make sense to think that He is bound by it (or subject to it). Free will and predestination have to be defined by who's view point you are considering. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1451386 France07/16/2011 09:03 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| humanitech User ID: 1467452 United Kingdom07/16/2011 10:34 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The commonly accepted belief on free will is that a human being has the ability to choose for them selves the path of life that they walk through, without influence from anything else in existence. Quoting: daretospeakThe commonly accepted belief on predestination is that everything is set in stone, your life is already written and you have no choice but to accept what "life" has given to you. I guess it all comes down to what you Believe. Or rather what you perceive free will and predestination to be. These two concepts in all their vast depths of meaning, suffer a terrible misconception, instead of seeking an in depth understanding on topics such as these, we as fallible humans have a tendency to develop a belief based on what we want to be truth, but allow me to say this, "It does not matter what you believe as the truth is still the truth". I could believe that I could fly on my own without any mechanical device, it wouldn't help me though as the truth is, is that I can not fly on my own without any mechanical device. Unless of course if I grew wings! Many would say that the bible has many references to support the predestination theory, therefor validating what they want truth to be, however there are no direct references to predestination in the bible, (Or is there?) I'm not against predestination, as God does know the outcome to all things. Therefore I'm sure that He would have included certain things about our lives in the blueprints for life. When life begins the first moment of its journey at the conception point in the womb, God would have to be present at that moment, as He is the essence and source of all life, making a moment in time to be a predestined point. God personally scheduled a moment in time to meet you for the first time ever, sure He knew all about you before you were made, but this is a point in time that he set aside to meet you. God knows the end from the beginning, He also gave us free choice, their are certain events in time that we are appointed for, our Character building choices, be that good or bad, are the vehicle to position ourselves at that moment of predestination. That is what predestination is, a destination point in time. The question is, will you meet at that point, based on your ability to make wise choices? Free choice and predestination are not opposing arguments, they walk hand in hand, we choose how we respond to the predestined moments when we get to them. The moments in time are predestined not mankind, mankind has a 100% free choosing ability to respond or react to moments in time. Time is the moment, the moment can be predestined, you make the choice through free will as to whether or not you walk into destiny, the destiny more often then not will be a beautiful moment, as God said, that He knows the thoughts He thinks towards you thoughts of good and not of evil thoughts to give you a hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11) Will you choose your destiny today? As an independant (non group individual)freewill and self determination is more prevalent, but people more group orientated and societies based becaome more compromise and structured where a compromise between personal freedom and ordered life is found. So it depends on what type of person you are ..as inbetween these two polar conditions are many options to bounce and choose between the two...hence why people adventure and go away from their hives to experience the sensation of both to some degree. |
| fairflight
User ID: 1071336 United States07/16/2011 10:37 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The commonly accepted belief on free will is that a human being has the ability to choose for them selves the path of life that they walk through, without influence from anything else in existence. Quoting: daretospeakThe commonly accepted belief on predestination is that everything is set in stone, your life is already written and you have no choice but to accept what "life" has given to you. I guess it all comes down to what you Believe. Or rather what you perceive free will and predestination to be. These two concepts in all their vast depths of meaning, suffer a terrible misconception, instead of seeking an in depth understanding on topics such as these, we as fallible humans have a tendency to develop a belief based on what we want to be truth, but allow me to say this, "It does not matter what you believe as the truth is still the truth". I could believe that I could fly on my own without any mechanical device, it wouldn't help me though as the truth is, is that I can not fly on my own without any mechanical device. Unless of course if I grew wings! Many would say that the bible has many references to support the predestination theory, therefor validating what they want truth to be, however there are no direct references to predestination in the bible, (Or is there?) I'm not against predestination, as God does know the outcome to all things. Therefore I'm sure that He would have included certain things about our lives in the blueprints for life. When life begins the first moment of its journey at the conception point in the womb, God would have to be present at that moment, as He is the essence and source of all life, making a moment in time to be a predestined point. God personally scheduled a moment in time to meet you for the first time ever, sure He knew all about you before you were made, but this is a point in time that he set aside to meet you. God knows the end from the beginning, He also gave us free choice, their are certain events in time that we are appointed for, our Character building choices, be that good or bad, are the vehicle to position ourselves at that moment of predestination. That is what predestination is, a destination point in time. The question is, will you meet at that point, based on your ability to make wise choices? Free choice and predestination are not opposing arguments, they walk hand in hand, we choose how we respond to the predestined moments when we get to them. The moments in time are predestined not mankind, mankind has a 100% free choosing ability to respond or react to moments in time. Time is the moment, the moment can be predestined, you make the choice through free will as to whether or not you walk into destiny, the destiny more often then not will be a beautiful moment, as God said, that He knows the thoughts He thinks towards you thoughts of good and not of evil thoughts to give you a hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11) Will you choose your destiny today? Pre-destination is an incorrect term. Replace it with fore-ordination and then agency is understood. It is commonly called free-agency. The fact is, that there is nothing free about agency or any action. There is always consequence, either good or bad, depending on actions and choices. "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. ALL truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself." |
| daretospeak
(OP) User ID: 1470534 United Kingdom07/16/2011 06:02 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I have a very strong feeling that I'm going to hell. Although I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I cannot stop sinning. I've asked God to help me to walk in the Spirit rather than the flesh...but I feel compelled to sinall of the time. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1451386read Romans, and Hebrews. Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that live, but Christ now lives in me and the life I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. |
| daretospeak
(OP) User ID: 1470534 United Kingdom07/16/2011 06:03 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The commonly accepted belief on free will is that a human being has the ability to choose for them selves the path of life that they walk through, without influence from anything else in existence. Quoting: daretospeakThe commonly accepted belief on predestination is that everything is set in stone, your life is already written and you have no choice but to accept what "life" has given to you. I guess it all comes down to what you Believe. Or rather what you perceive free will and predestination to be. These two concepts in all their vast depths of meaning, suffer a terrible misconception, instead of seeking an in depth understanding on topics such as these, we as fallible humans have a tendency to develop a belief based on what we want to be truth, but allow me to say this, "It does not matter what you believe as the truth is still the truth". I could believe that I could fly on my own without any mechanical device, it wouldn't help me though as the truth is, is that I can not fly on my own without any mechanical device. Unless of course if I grew wings! Many would say that the bible has many references to support the predestination theory, therefor validating what they want truth to be, however there are no direct references to predestination in the bible, (Or is there?) I'm not against predestination, as God does know the outcome to all things. Therefore I'm sure that He would have included certain things about our lives in the blueprints for life. When life begins the first moment of its journey at the conception point in the womb, God would have to be present at that moment, as He is the essence and source of all life, making a moment in time to be a predestined point. God personally scheduled a moment in time to meet you for the first time ever, sure He knew all about you before you were made, but this is a point in time that he set aside to meet you. God knows the end from the beginning, He also gave us free choice, their are certain events in time that we are appointed for, our Character building choices, be that good or bad, are the vehicle to position ourselves at that moment of predestination. That is what predestination is, a destination point in time. The question is, will you meet at that point, based on your ability to make wise choices? Free choice and predestination are not opposing arguments, they walk hand in hand, we choose how we respond to the predestined moments when we get to them. The moments in time are predestined not mankind, mankind has a 100% free choosing ability to respond or react to moments in time. Time is the moment, the moment can be predestined, you make the choice through free will as to whether or not you walk into destiny, the destiny more often then not will be a beautiful moment, as God said, that He knows the thoughts He thinks towards you thoughts of good and not of evil thoughts to give you a hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11) Will you choose your destiny today? Pre-destination is an incorrect term. Replace it with fore-ordination and then agency is understood. It is commonly called free-agency. The fact is, that there is nothing free about agency or any action. There is always consequence, either good or bad, depending on actions and choices. but there is something free about will. Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that live, but Christ now lives in me and the life I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. |
| lol User ID: 1025903  Lithuania07/16/2011 06:39 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This question only arises because of choice. If everything is clear than there is no choice. It is the question of indentification. So, conditions are predestined in your life (when, where you are born(?)) yet you have a choice to react or not to react to those conditions? If so, it appears so, that as long as we believe that we are this mortal body so long the illusion of free will persists. But if we use this so called free will to realize our true nature by turning 'within' which, in fact, is the only choice, then standing as pure choiceless awareness we would lose such concepts as 'free will' and 'predestination. In Truth there would be no 'we' and 'I' to have free will or no free will. Thus, it appears so that there are bodies, it appears so that there is free will, it appears so that there is heaven, hell, personal God, but it is only an appearance. To whom does it arise? Find out. |
| daretospeak
(OP) User ID: 1470675 United Kingdom07/16/2011 08:08 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Yes and No. Quoting: lol 1025903This question only arises because of choice. If everything is clear than there is no choice. It is the question of indentification. So, conditions are predestined in your life (when, where you are born(?)) yet you have a choice to react or not to react to those conditions? If so, it appears so, that as long as we believe that we are this mortal body so long the illusion of free will persists. But if we use this so called free will to realize our true nature by turning 'within' which, in fact, is the only choice, then standing as pure choiceless awareness we would lose such concepts as 'free will' and 'predestination. In Truth there would be no 'we' and 'I' to have free will or no free will. Thus, it appears so that there are bodies, it appears so that there is free will, it appears so that there is heaven, hell, personal God, but it is only an appearance. To whom does it arise? Find out. How can the answer lay within, when the question arises from the outside? Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that live, but Christ now lives in me and the life I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. |
| E1even - E1even
User ID: 1465683 United States07/16/2011 11:48 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The commonly accepted belief on free will is that a human being has the ability to choose for them selves the path of life that they walk through, without influence from anything else in existence. Quoting: daretospeakThe commonly accepted belief on predestination is that everything is set in stone, your life is already written and you have no choice but to accept what "life" has given to you. ........ This is simple !!!! First I will state that I do believe in God ! One Creator / Intelligent design !!!! Ok .... FREEWILL was given to us by our Creator! Predestination is fate , destiny and such... Almost work hand in hand w/ each other !! (ie) God gives Freewill to choose, if One chooses God's Law God will grace them with ascension to the next level (ie) God gives Freewill to choose, if one chooses evil one forfeits Ascension to God's Glory and the devil gets the soul!! So basically what are you " DESTINED " for or what will ones " Fate " be, is up too them due too FREEWILL !! We know Eve liked " Rotten " apples !!! Hahahahahaha.... Adam & Eve's fate was of their own doing !!! Another example: We have a consciousness... Ok.... (ie) devils minion on one shoulder & an Angel on the other and both have their " tally " sheets out recording outcomes!!! (ie) What does one do when they find a wad of cash in the street? The war that wages behind the scene is - The Angel leads you to the lost money - the minion makes sure no one is around to see you find it !!! What do you do !!!! ( Freewill ) Predestined - would be we all return it or we all take it !! Even if you consider our " predestined lives " independent " Independence amounts too FREEWILL .... If it was predetermined or Predestination then one would never ask themselves or feel guilt for that matter !!! Predestined we are drones and such that should not think for ourselves !!!! God our Creator I believe surly would frown at this, afterall we are made in His image we live because of His dive BREATH !! Would he not want us to think for ourselves would he not want greatness from his children? Ok.... Man can create flesh through "Mitosis / clones" and genetically advance them or stifle the advance, through genetics and teaching / brainwashing thus giving a predestined outcome! ( even then we are of GODS design Freewill being buried it will shine through ) " Ever see the Kurt Russel movie " - Soldier ? ( I think thats the name) something like that.... But man can't create the first breath or the " egg and the sperm " they are trying but will fail at perfection as they advance this field and even as I think God wants us to excel i fear: This will be when mankind becomes TRULY GODLESS !!! We are artificially creating life so science rebukes God as it is? just think when science refines the process !!! What Science FAILS to understand and admit is : All their knowledge and Tools come from the creator !! In otherwords science is only an understanding of the world of which is around us and that already has been CREATED !!! FREEWILL TO CHOOSE, FREEWILL TO CREATE, FREEWILL TOO LOVE, FREEWILL TOO SAVE ONES SOUL & ACCEPT HIM OR NOT !!!! I don't know, i could go on but ya' know..... But i do know that God is Real and in us and around us all !! I pray for wayward souls to find Him, he only asks that we have Faith !! God is in Control - But we control our Fate !!! Last Edited by E1even - E1even on 07/16/2011 11:52 PM |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1470859 United States07/17/2011 12:43 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Actually what you believe has nothing to do with any of it. It has been proven that if a particle has that ability to exhibit random behavior then the observer of said particle also has the ability to exhibit random behavior. So everything in the universe has freewill. But… From an infinite dimensional perspective random variables are deterministic. So from the perspective of God (or anything else with an infinite dimensional perspective) everything is predestined. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1377190 United States07/17/2011 12:53 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1364318 United States07/17/2011 01:03 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| E1even - E1even
User ID: 1465683 United States07/17/2011 01:20 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1470401 United States07/17/2011 01:22 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The predestination Scriptures apply only to the early believers.....the first fruits. For example, it was pre-destined that Christ would call out from heaven to Paul......and Paul was instantly changed. From this early seed........the small group of those first to believe.........the church could grow. Throughout the Old Testament, God always preserved a small remnant of believers.........and this continued when Christ came......with those first to believe. The mistake of Calvinism is to apply pre-destination to all believers........hundreds of years later on. The Spirit will convict people of their need for Christ......but it is their free will to chose whether to listen or not. The letter from Paul to the Ephesians is 100% applicable to those early believers. Perhaps about 95% of the book is applicable to all believers. For example, this is not applicable to us: "Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, will make all things known to you....." This is also not applicable to us......only to those first believers reading this letter: "in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINED according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, THAT WE WHO FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST should be to the praise of His glory. (Eph 1: 11-12) |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 842983 United States07/17/2011 01:51 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| daretospeak
(OP) User ID: 1471020  Australia07/17/2011 02:52 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | It was your destiny to post this, OP. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 842983Yes and I chose to meet my destiny when it met me....I didnt run from it. Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that live, but Christ now lives in me and the life I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. |
| AlasBabylon
User ID: 1458028 United States07/17/2011 03:02 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1471040 Australia07/17/2011 03:16 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| daretospeak
(OP) User ID: 1471020 Australia07/17/2011 03:22 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | hello darlin' Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1471040 ummm ok....  Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I that live, but Christ now lives in me and the life I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. |
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| 4 | Free Will vs. Predestination (Bible Believers) | 05/18/12 |
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