The Pre-tribulation rapture theory is false.

I'm not sure that a person posting a Bible verse, or verses, and believing that the verse, or verses, means what they believe it means......can prove much. I see that a lot here and elsewhere, frankly. You will get people saying a verse means a thousand different things. (or more)

And each person will tell you their way is the right way.

It's almost like believing that one can control the meaning of the Bible by posting some of it. Or, maybe it's not like that, but, actually is that. I don't know.

Seems it would be more an issue of the reader of the Bible relying on the author of the Bible to explain it properly. Too much room for twisting and turning when it's put into a human hand alone. Lots in there that goes beyond the human dimension.

You know, all that spiritual stuff in there.

I'm pro rapture

How does all this talk work for you now in your daily life? Would GOD PROVIDE FOR YOU What you need everyday now if you could not do it yourself? Rapture or no rapture? GOD will see you through it all somehow, either way, no matter what happens. Just today I was given something no one else knew I needed except GOD. An unmarked van, dropped it off in front of my house.

Lol. Stars that have fallen are the politicians and pedophile actors. The sun blocked was the eclipse in August and the moon gave off no light. The sign for the son of man was in late September. And the clouds are storage based solutions. Nice try though.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Luke 14:14
and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”

There are not two separate resurrections for the Je.w and gentile.

Galatians 3:26-29
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

John 5:28-29
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Acts 24:15
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

John 6:39-54
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:4
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Last Edited by Photina on 08/04/2018 03:41 AM

lol.

??

You've made a dozen posts and I still don't know what your stance is.

Last Edited by Photina on 08/04/2018 11:50 AM

Still waiting.

Post #5:

I think that the rapture is an issue that causes a lot of turmoil. IMO, needlessly. The truth of the matter is only for ourselves, and only within a personal relationship to the true God, who interprets all Scripture regarding this issue and all others. IMO, we cannot force others to accept, nor interfere with what is a personal relationship between man and the true God.

That said, I will be raptured. Of this I am certain.

And, it only matters to me.

Who here truly cares what happens to me? Seriously? Anyone here going to lose sleep over me and my eternal soul? Bite their nails down to the skin hoping I will believe their version of the rapture? I think not.

So, why care what someone believes about the rapture so much?

Maybe for those so set on proving something it is not about others, after all.

Only those who argue the matter can answer that honestly.

First of all; that's just a fancy way of saying that you are in darkness about when the church is saved.

Secondly, you just paid lip service to God and claimed that you are in a personal relationship with Him; yet you worship a false image of the true God (the trinity).

Last Edited by Photina on 08/04/2018 01:21 PM

Rapture is a doctrine like speaking in tongues, hell etc...

ALL of them revolve around human interpretation of Bible verses.

I TRY to not take a stand on any of them, as they have NOTHING to do with Salvation.

Let's say that you believe in "pre-tribulation" rapture. IF that doesn't happen...WHAT will you do then. Will you HATE GOD for not delivering what YOU expected? I would PRAY not....as NO ONE knows all things nor ALL of God's Will in the "end of times".

IF a "pre-tribulation Rapture" does NOT happen, then...you as a God Believing / God FEARING human...need to KEEP your FAITH in God and His Son Jesus STRONG!

Whose words really mean something? I think that it goes something like this:


1. God.

2. Our own. (words reveal our heart and have some power to enrich or destroy others)

3. Our loved ones.

4. Our true friends. (If you are fortunate enough to have one or more)

5. Our work colleagues. (Although there is a line)

6. A stranger. (case by case basis)


Of all of the above, who has determination as to the eternal soul?

Some will say only number 1. Some will say it's a relationship between 1 and 2. Some will say only themselves. Some will say that there is no eternal soul.

Just like some will say there is a pre-trib rapture, mid or post. Some will say the rapture is a lie and/or there is no God anyway.

Point being, that this rapture issue is not dictated by 2-6. Neither myself nor anyone else on earth can decide God's truth for Him. We have no power like that.

So, any opinions from 2-6 (me included) have no bearing on the rapture. The truth of the matter is not available to be changed. So, why try?

Matt 24:24
False messiahs and false prophets will appear. They will work spectacular, miraculous signs and do wonderful things to deceive, if possible, even those whom God has chosen.

If a person is accused rightly and guilty before God of a behavior, sin, etc. then a Bible verse condemning that specific behavior, sin, etc. will apply.

If a person is accused falsely and innocent before God of a behavior, sin, etc. then a Bible verse condemning that specific behavior, sin, etc. will not apply.

Who determines guilt or innocence before God? God.

So again, believing that one can control the meaning of the Bible simply by posting some of it does not work.

Who determines the application of His own Word? God.

Who would put themselves on a throne and judge men's sins and souls in the place of God?

People do it.

The entire book is bullshit. This is like batman vs superman. They don't exist in real life.

Paulinism - taking the words of Paul over what Jesus is recorded as saying.

This webpage makes no mention of Jesus talking about the end times in Mattew, nor Mark or Luke.

[link to www.gotquestions.org (secure)]

Matthew 24 [link to www.biblestudytools.com (secure)]
Mark 13 [link to www.biblestudytools.com (secure)]
Luke 21 [link to www.biblestudytools.com (secure)]

Amen, as YHWH wills. His will is perfect

Jesus keeps the 144,000 safe until He returns and they are seem on a mountain top in Israel. That would be the mountain where Moses and Elias were seen in vision form and they watch the events associated with the resurrection of the two witnesses, the sounding of the 7th trump and the effects that causes as all 7 vials are poured out in just a few hours. The Re:20:4 resurrections finish off that 1st day.
The 144,000 and the two witnesses are sealed by the morning the 1st trump sounds. Re:11 is the 1st of the 2nd group in Re:7 that is gathered. By the time the 7 vials have been poured out the separation of the sheep/goats will have been completed. The 1/3 that survive the 7 vials of all Gentiles on the Planet would qualify as being ‘the Church’ that is gathered without needing a resurrection from the grave. They would have one of the 7 relationships in the 7 letters that God likes. The 2/3 that die will have one of the other 7 relationships defined and they will be awake in hell for the 1,000 years and hell is unlocked at the GWT event so they are the ones that are in the 2nd group in re:7 that have gone through ‘great tribulation’. Specific terms really do matter, tribulation for ‘believers’ is the 5th and 6th trumps and the 3 ½ years Satan and the Beast are allowed to continue what they were doing before the flood. Trying to kill all 5 fingered people.
Earnest prayer in the De:4 prophecy is how believers are saved, the two witnesses alone have the authority to do something that results in the believer escaping danger. Re:12 says they are in the wilderness so that is their beast protection as Satan is trying to capture Jerusalem. The two witnesses alone are defending it and they die so Satan can have the city for the 3 ½ days they are in the grave.


Zec:14 starts off with Jesus returning and fighting against the nations so when Israel is mentioned it is the 144,000 and everybody that Eze:37 would add to that number. The feast that takes place every year will be completed 1,000 times. The ‘remnant of the nations’ will be the 1/3 of all gentiles that are alive after the 7 vials have done their thing and they are joined by the resurrected church. Everybody from both groups will visit the river in Eze:47 as that is how they are glorified while Jesus had to ascend to the Re:4 temple to have that done.

They are 10,000 Holy Angels who are in the Enoch prophecy in Jude:1 and they are the same 10,000 Saints when Moses references them as an historical event.

Jude:1:14:
And Enoch also,
the seventh from Adam,
prophesied of these,
saying,
Behold,
the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

De:33:2:
And he said,
The LORD came from Sinai,
and rose up from Seir unto them;
he shined forth from mount Paran,
and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand went a fiery law for them.


Re:12:4:
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,
and did cast them to the earth:
and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered,
for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Noah and his wife and their 3 sons were the last 5 fingered people alive on the planet when the flood stopped the extermination attempt. The exodus wars saw the last 6 fingered people die and that allowed the 10 commandments to become the law.
The ‘slaughter of the innocents’ was god defining what the term ‘land of the enemy’ in the Jeremiah:31 prophecy is about. It points to the grave being the land of the enemy rather than it being a gentile nation. That ‘slight change’ actually makes a big difference in how the prophecies are read.




Your reference is for the gathering of all angels in heaven, the ‘armies of heaven’ that come with Jesus have a different mission.
Lu:17:34-37:
I tell you,
in that night there shall be two men in one bed;
the one shall be taken,
and the other shall be left.
Two women shall be grinding together;
the one shall be taken,
and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field;
the one shall be taken,
and the other left.
And they answered and said unto him,
Where,
Lord?
And he said unto them,
Wheresoever the body is,
thither will the eagles be gathered together.

M't:24:28:
For wheresoever the carcase is,
there will the eagles be gathered together.

M't:13:41:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;

Joe:2:1-2:
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion,
and sound an alarm in my holy mountain:
let all the inhabitants of the land tremble:
for the day of the LORD cometh,
for it is nigh at hand;
A day of darkness and of gloominess,
a day of clouds and of thick darkness,
as the morning spread upon the mountains:
a great people and a strong;
there hath not been ever the like,
neither shall be any more after it,
even to the years of many generations.

Joe:2:10-11:
The earth shall quake before them;
the heavens shall tremble:
the sun and the moon shall be dark,
and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army:
for his camp is very great:
for he is strong that executeth his word:
for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;
and who can abide it?

Brief version, I have yet to meet a pre-tribber that claims he will be doing this for Jesus.

When any person dies the breat of life returns to God and the dust goes to sleep until the 7 vials have been poured out and the re:20:4 resurrections are the event that is about to happen. Some people are woken up so they are part of the living during the 1,000 year reign but most remain asleep until the GWT event after Satan is in the fiery lake. The 7,000 that die in the Re:11 quake would be the last ones to die and go to sleep. If you die after the 7th trump sounds you are in the grave but still awake, that is known as hell which is a locked cage in a place called ‘the Pit’. It is a prison for fallen angels. There is a reason the gate to hell is locked and they are on the other side.



New Jerusalem is the place being referenced. Everybody alive for the 1,000 years is taken from this earth to the location of Mount Sion and because they are already sinless they can enter New Jerusalem. When the rest enter and it lands on the new earth ‘the rest’ exit and make their homes outside of the walls of the City and the ones left inside will call that home as it is a reward reserved for the group that will act as shepherds to the ones outside the City.


The 7 vials are how the sheep/goats are separated, we are even given the ratio.
Zec:14:2:
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
and the city shall be taken,
and the houses rifled,
and the women ravished;
and half of the city shall go forth into captivity,
and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


Zec:13:8-9:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.



The people alive for the 1,000 years are made immortal at the very beginning. They are not given in marriage so no children will be born. The 1,000 years for the 12 tribes is learning how the Temple works in a sinless earth, the Church will learn things they will use when they acts as shepherds to the population that will make their homes outside of the wall of New Jerusalem. Living inside the City is another reason they are not given in marriage. A static population never outgrows the city over the period known as ‘eternity’.
The sword in the last verse in Re:19 is the same sword mentioned in Isa:65. That whole chapter is about them starting out with what their sins were before the 7th trump sounded, the torment they will experience while being awake in the grave and what they will do after Herbrews:12 shows the GWT is chastisement and forgiveness rather than chastisement and then the fiery lake.



In this case the last of them was in the group of OT Saints that were resurrected on the same morning Jesus was. Enoch and Ezekiel would also fit into that specific group. When you take into consideration that marriages do not follow us into the next phase it would be Adam and Eve standing there rather than Adam being the reprehensive of the two of them. That is worth mentioning when Eve is pushed as being the 1st woman in Re:12 and the 12 starts are 12 male children that gave been gathered to God already. By the time the GWT event is over she will have a full crown as all her sons and daughters will be represented


Nice summation, too bad it is completely wrong. The 70th week was the 7 years that began when the 69th one ended. It started when John the Baptist was called, 3 ½ years later the cross happened and 3 ½ years after that Peter started teaching Gentiles about God in Acts:10. The Da:8 ‘little horn; verses cover Rome’s full 500 year rule over Jerusalem between 63BC -450AD. The cross and 70AD are easy to spot. The last few verses in Da:8 is a summation of what the iron/clay kingdom is about. Da:11 is only about the iron/clay and it can be shown it comes to the earth 3 ½ years before the 7th trump sounds. The two witnesses alone keep Jerusalem from falling into their hands until the day they die and then Satan is only allowed to control the city for the time they are in the grave. The 7 vials are poured out in a few hours and the resurrections take a few more hors but all are completed by the end of that same day. The day of the cross was the completion of the bruise to the heel from Ge:3:15 and the 7 vials are how Satan get a bruise to his head.

Putting the prophecies to the right bruise is the fastest way to sort through them all.


That is because Ge:3:15 has 2 bruises that need to be completed before Adam and Eve can stand before God again. Jesus had 3 ½ years before He died, Satan is given 3 ½ years from when the 5th trump sound until he is put into the Pit which is equal to him being killed as a few fallen angels that came from that same Pit are sent to the same fiery lake he is headed for when he is released. When he comes against Jerusalem it looks like it would have if sin had never entered the world and Israel will look like it did when the garden was not a place of sin


The passage that includes all of Zec:14 includes the last 3 verses of Zec:13 and that is the sheep/goats judgment so the ones left alive still have to wait for the Re:20:4 resurrection to take place before they can also have an immortal body and a sinless heart.
1/3 Of all gentiles would be more than 2B people. That many being saved makes any other gathering more than a little silly really.


His coming starts with wrath just like Re:11 outlines. The 7 letters show rewards are possible, Re:15 is specific to people around during the 42 months the fallen angel known as the Beast has as does the ration for who the ‘remnant of the nations’ are in Zec:14.

This really is as brief as I could be as your questions are 'somewhat complex'.

Amen, I believe many will "Fall Away" when the Seals begin to be opened and they have not been "Raptured" yet.

Thats why this pre trib rapture theory is so dangerous.

When it doesn't happen like people think it will they are going to lose it.

In my opinion, hope for the "rapture", if you want to, but prepare yourself to deal with whatever comes and stand strong if you have to face the tribulation.

That way, you won't lose your mind when things start happening.

Learn to control your fear, because fear cuts deeper than swords.

The key to understanding the end times prophecies is to see that "tribulation" does NOT equal "wrath".

Paul makes no mention of tribulation...only wrath.

Let's say that you believe in "pre-tribulation" rapture.

IF that doesn't happen...WHAT will you do then?

Will you HATE GOD for having to live through the tribulation, and for not delivering what YOU expected?

I would PRAY not....as NO ONE knows all things nor ALL of God's Will in the "end of times".

IF a "pre-tribulation Rapture" does NOT happen, then...you as a God Believing / God FEARING human...will need to KEEP your FAITH in God and the Lord Jesus STRONG!

I will point out once again that the verses of 1 Thessalonians 4 that everyone uses for proof of a rapture do NOT state anything about the Tribulation period.

And Jesus' own words in Mark 13 are often overlooked

24 But in those days, after that tribu-
lation, the sun shall be darkened, and the
moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and
the powers that are in heaven shall be
shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of
man coming in the clouds with great
power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels,
and shall gather together his elect from
the four winds, from the uttermost part
of the earth to the uttermost part of
heaven.

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 08/06/2018 10:33 AM

We know that the Beast will place an image of himself in the Temple in the end times and demand to be worshipped according to Daniel 7, 9 and Revelation 13; after that we will only have 3 1/2 years until the return of Jesus - if there no pre-trib rapture. And until Jesus returns "...there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again." Matthew 24:21

So, how do these verses apply, seeing that we can calculate the return of Jesus?:

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour." Matthew 25:13

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning" Mark 13:32-35

"For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober." 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6



.

The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "There is still one man who can inquire of the LORD, but I hate him because he never prophesies good about me, but only disaster. He is Micaiah son of Imlah." "The king shouldn't say that," Jehoshaphat replied.

2 Chronicles 18:7