Notes from an "alternate universe": The Revelation of the Real World

I'm thinking that our discussion on punishment is related to our lava flow scenario. Of course I cannot read your mind, it's just an other wild guess :)

Let's imagine that a child's parents imposed a potential punishment upon them for taking cookies from the cookie jar without their permission.

The punishment was "no playing outside for one week", which the child understood on Monday before he took cookies from the jar the following Wednesday.

Three questions...

1) Do you see "no playing outside for one week" as a natural consequence of their actions, or as punishment?

2) Do you think that the punishment is just?

You mentioned that you were not a fan of punishment, as they encouraged or dissuaded action in relation to fear of authority. So...

3) In your idea society, would there be punishment for wrongful action?

Im sorry

Please forgive me

I love you

Thank you


Ho oppo pono an ancient Hawaiian philosophy/belief that states that are reality around you is created by you and can be changed by you. Even the government that you have conflict with is your fault your creation. By repeating the mantra it is said that you can change the reality and make it better with less chaos fear and negative energies.

One just has to direct the mantra at whatever they wish to see change with, at, upon, and throughout. You are the creator you are the one to make change. Change the energy change the reality.

I will think on how our discussion on punishment is related to our lava flow scenario.

As you've pointed out, everything is as natural as everything else, and each social structure is as natural as the next; perhaps "natural consequence" is not the most accurate term for what I'm talking about. Maybe something closer to "consequences in absence of hierarchal authority structures" (bit more of a mouthful, though)

A "punishment," then, would be a consequence in the presence of hierarchal authority structures. A hierarchal authority structure, the way I see it, necessitates that the "higher" levels of the structure wield more power. Since no one entity in perspective actually holds any more power over an other, I see these kinds of systems as being easily able to be abused*

I see hierarchal systems of authority imbedded everywhere in the current society, and it starts at home with parents being authorities just for being parents, just for being older

It should be noted that I find conversations on power and authority incredibly frustrating (what don't I find frustrating with English) because the definitions of both are incredibly obfuscated. The top definition of "authority" is "the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience," where I view "proper authority" more of as author-ity: an aspect of perspective that has more knowledge or know-how about something particular. A master tradesman who has been working in his trade for 50 years would be more of an authority in his trade than a novice who just started. The former would have perhaps greater say (authorship) in matters pertaining to his trade. However, I don't think such authority grants (or should grant) control. I think authority should be informative, not controlling. A master tradesman may know very much about his trade and that information should inform the novice, but the master can't know everything and the novice may have valuable input that the master may not have considered. In a hierarchal authority structure where the master would have the ability to enforce his view of obedience, such input may be interpreted as disobedience and could not be capitalized upon.

Everything is inherently unequal, but hierarchal structures seem to use that fact in a top-down fashion that isn't reciprocal in useful ways. A more side-to-side structure where authority is informative appears more useful to me. Masters obviously teach novices, parents teach children, but it goes the other way, too (in different forms, of course). Hierarchal structures seem to inhibit the flow of information (and, thus, power) to only one way.

Two groups who come together with their various differences without interference of hierarchal authority structures may find it easier to see how their strengths and weaknesses compliment each other and come to compromises or dealings that ultimately benefit both. Hierarchal structures still are reciprocal, of course, but in the sense that the one group is subconsciously very happy to give up their power and the other is very happy to take it. That's not useful reciprocation, in my opinion

1) At any rate, "no playing outside for one week" would be a punishment as there's an interfering hierarchal structure with the parent(s) wielding power that the child has no say in, and "just because I'm the parent"

2) I would not say that the punishment (seems either you anticipated my defining it as a punishment or I was influenced by you calling it a punishment, who knows :) ) is just. Of course "justice" is an other term that is ill-defined to say the absolute least. My personal definition of "justice" isn't as-well-defined, but I suppose I tend to think of it in direct relation to the "offense."

The taking of a cookie has no direct relation to playing outside, from the perspective of the child; it only has relation to the perspective of the authority figure who assumes to re-exert their authority by taking something the child enjoys that otherwise is unrelated. In addition to that, the punishment isn't proportional to the act of taking the cookie itself. The taking of the cookie took two seconds. A punishment over one week is disproportionate to that. The punishment is only "just" for the parent because the act was done without permission, which was perceived as disobedience, or, a threat to their authority. Proportionate to the parent, not the child.

"What should the punishment be, then?" is a logical follow-up question. If I had children, the entire situation would be different as I wouldn't have cookies lying routinely around the house, and I wouldn't be an authority-in-control figure more than an authority-who-seeks-to-inform figure, so there'd be no authority to "challenge," as it were.

Considering the hypothetical, though, I'll add an other hypothetical: that the cookies are only for desert; the child must finish their meal and veggies before they can have a cookie. Taking a cookie outside of those conditions simply means that they don't get a cookie after dinner. Perhaps the child decides that that's okay by them and reoffends by taking a cookie outside of those conditions again. In that case, no more cookies after dinner. Obviously the conditions no longer mean anything and are no longer useful.

Conditions are: cookie after dinner. Conditions no longer being useful: no more cookies after dinner.

But this is still within a hierarchal authority structure, so that is still a "punishment," just a "punishment" that's closer to a consequence in the absence of hierarchal authority structures than is "no playing outside for a week."

3) In my ideal society, no there wouldn't be "punishment" for wrongful action if punishment is defined, as I have, as a consequence in the presence of hierarchal authority structures, as my ideal society wouldn't have hierarchal authority structures. In my ideal society, I think, people would have at least the rudimentary understanding that they don't have to engage in what they don't want to, and what they are experiencing is what they "want" to experience** (there's another one for the "want" discussion. I need new words, STAT). Such an understanding removes the need for punishments, as it engenders an understanding that the punishment reinforces the action and solidifies the whole reality of the action further.

The bold brings me to

*"I see [hierarchal authority] systems as being easily able to be abused" in systems where it is not common conscious knowledge that reality is "built" in real time. The "problem" with current hierarchal structures is less that they're inherently bad and more that they're easy to deceive within. If everyone suddenly became aware that they've chosen to be in a hierarchal system and are content with their respective place in it, knowing that it could be different if they so chose, that's cool. I'd even be interested in traveling to a place where I perceive being a slave (of the former definition than American slavery, where slave was more of a class that did have its own rights than a position of violent subjugation), on the condition that I knew I could change the structures around me.

which brings me to

**It'd probably be helpful for me, designing an ideal society, to have more than a rudimentary understanding of this concept and more of a practical one. I don't have all the details hammered out yet, and of course the "problem" is getting from "this" perspective where it's difficult to even conceive of a world without hierarchal authority structures to one where they don't exist. I suppose conception is the first step, though

Last Edited by Sabai_ on 08/10/2022 06:38 AM

All right, I know I said this:



But, actually, what's the difference between the Books of Wisdom and Extended Self? The sections/questions in each are the same

How effective are mantras, spells, and the like when you're not totally immersed in the systems in which they originate?

Just clarifying that I'm aware even American slavery likely wasn't as it's portrayed, just going off of the common definition the way it is portrayed contemporarily

If it was to be roughly quantified as I have done for myself, 0%. It would depend not on the person but upon the systems they make use of. The systems that the average person uses — to generalise — while awake are relatively devoid of anything that would induce a sense of a more complete self.

Please note that the Revelations site will be taken offline for approximately 5 years, some days after I have published its 'Superhumanism' page within the next ninety days or so.

Additionally, Neuronics, Prospery, and Selfish will be taken offline, all in preparation for our continuously-unfolding narrative that will culminate in the United States of Tradition project and continue on from there. Any related developments (such as the new Genius) may happen in a community-produced UST 'State'.

The Truth is independent of any perspective and cannot be known.

If the surrounding dramas are getting silly, it's more of how your perspective 'begins to perceive' new realities. That the dramas become more obvious for what they are can be a useful realisation, but it is not really the drama itself that is becoming more strange. It is the realisation itself.


Something you're not really 'supposed' to see :)

That realisation can take you away from the sense of existence, so friction can sometimes result if one is not okay with being Nothing and having no reality. But it sounds like you're more comfortable being in that position and use the realisation of your Self as something interesting enough to give you the sense.


I will ponder this more and attempt to make it my next response.

Can you please tell me, though, what the first thing that comes to mind is when you think of a hand-sized white box on the ceiling?

Thank you, that all makes sense. It was helpful :)



Hmm, what comes to mind is that I can choose to put whatever I want in the metaphysical world at any time. I guess I'll then see if / how it interacts with my physical self.

However at the very least, I can be more conscious with what I'm creating / accepting into that space. With the note that "not" accepting isn't "fighting" it of course.. as that's just a different way of creating it there...

I'd be lying if I said that reading that certainly didn't give me a strange sense of fear. Interesting!

Will the other sections be updated as well?

You're very welcome :)


I see.

And how about your earliest memory, if I might ask?

Heh.

Do you need / want me to type it out or does it not matter?

I feel like it’s enough to say that’s exactly what I’ve been focused on in the time since that last message. It’s actually a “pre” first memory and entirely made up. However, just as “real” and has been what my endless drama loops have been based on. It was so freaking obvious once I saw it.

As it wasn’t “real” it was fairly easy to tweak it to change my “story” entirely.

If anything intentionally happens from that, I will let you know!

Intriguing.

What can you tell us about a community-produced UST 'State'?

(I was looking forward to the New Genius section. I have gravitated towards the Genius since the beginning. I sure hope it does happen)

Thanks for the heads up!

Still feeling in some kind of limbo here, though my life certainly is lots better than when I first started posting in these threads, I don’t really feel my life is “in my hands”.

But as you stated that one does not really have to “do” anything, my overall feel is one of confidence that it will turn out the best way possible.

So there's "consciousness" between two things that relate. I'm getting that that's more of a metaphysical thing that I don't quite grasp, but are things "conscious"? Sort of like the Shinto belief that everything has a spirit. Just curious, there's a doorknob that I think is out to get me

*puts on a Chaol hat* Just my current perspective.

1st deception: Only complicated organisms are conscious

2nd deception: Everything is conscious, including doorknobs

Reality: Nothing is conscious, including you or I. Things just differ in how much of a sense of not being nothing they “give the Self” when they interact.

:)

Out of curiosity, how are you helping your grandma?

Helping other people is a strange concept to me; or rather, it's just hard to be with or to deal with people in general.

I'm sure you probably find yourself exhausted explaining your POV to others that just don't get it. At times I feel as though we all just keeping spinning and spinning in circles and not getting anywhere - although that's the point, sometimes I do hope for a better mode of existence!

This isn't singling out anyone; I am just making a bold claim that almost all of us who do follow this along are quite confused most of the time! :)
If anything I am the one that just doesn't get it, and it seems others get it a lot more than me!

One thing I am struggling with is the (central) need to feel alive.
Where the quickest way to do that is through chaotic elements like other people.

I keep on playing with the ideas of building stuff, but I struggle with the answer, "who am I building this for?"
Most of the things I'm working on (for money among other things) requires other eyes.
I'm not sure what sort of things I would make on my own that I would never share with someone else.
Never tried either. I guess that's a start, to evaluate that.

So although I have an idea as to what to do next, just throwing out there: is there a missing piece of knowledge to where I can just feel alive on my own?
Guess this is why they advise excessive meditation.

Do you just keep reminding yourself that others the the world at large are just different flavors of yourself? Not sure.

Intellectually I acknowledge any sort of chaos leaves me at square one when it is over, which is a emptiness; whether it be drugs, conversations, travels, medias, fun times out, whatever else, forum browsing, etc
Emotionally I'm not quite catching up: life is already quite austere and I'm just not sure what to do with this constant empty impetus to create something, when creation seems to invite more chaos.
When creation is fueled by a desire to get lost in chaos.

Hey OP, any thing in particular to say on the Book of Revelation?

It could be said that the longer you are with them the more you are 'meant to be together', even if you don't all ways feel good with them.

You're not supposed to have a good and healthy relationship, or a bad one.


For me, it's to start afresh.

Sometimes the problem in our lives could be just a favourite chair, or the window you open when you come home. Sometimes a complete re-organisation of furniture does the job, and sometimes it is to re-think some other relationship that is had. Emptying one's closet every couple of years isn't for most, but it could help to organise one's life so that the flow is easier to be experienced.

We are surrounded by our thoughts, you could say.

There is nothing wrong with living in an expensive house or being attached to a particular way of thinking, for example, if you're willing to let it go just as well. Our more trying dramas are often produced not by the things we have or the conditions we find ourselves in, but our unwillingness to change them when new information is had.

If you're too comfortable being on step 635trh4h of the logical narrative, you might produce a new drama that is a narrative to get you off of that step onto the next.

As I've often said, our reality comes about from relationships between things rather than the things themselves. Because of this, friction could be experienced when we have 'new' things but prefer to continue with the same relationships or relate to things in the same way.


Perhaps it could easily be simplified by considering each aspect of your life and thinking, "What is the real benefit of this?"

Things that don't have benefit are distractions from things that do. We can waste an entire lifetime with things that do not really benefit us, but simply are things that we produce to waste our own time, so to speak.

I've made an important part of what you wrote in bold.

How do you think it resolve with what I say above?: "our reality comes about from relationships between things rather than the things themselves."

Our human default is laziness, stupidity, and ignorance. An empty shell, in a way. (The systems we learn to adopt make all the difference in the world.) I think Miyagi was trying to find out how human he was to see how close, or far, he was from greatness.

Start afresh, like switching from all ways wearing black t shirts to ditching them all for colored shirts?

As I did some 20 years ago by switching from all white shirts to black.

Like selling all of your guitars, bringing all books you didn’t read for 20 years to the thriftshop?

I do like to do that.

Hey builder, how many pdfs are available in your website?

I was just curious about how you would interpret "just waking up on the island". Waking up alone, or waking up with the other person.


It is something that some will be considering deeply when developing structures for the United States of Tradition competition.

I suppose it would make more sense to call fundamental rights in the new USA "God-given" to give the impression that they cannot be changed nor should be impeded upon.

The more laws and regulations there are the further away from "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" the direction seems to go.

The Cult is trying to re-create humanity in a lab using the endless signals we feed to it daily (the AI universe) even as I type these words, so that one kind of person takes precedence over an other.

A re-interpretation of the doppelgänger portraits of the 18th century.

They want your AI twin to have 'freedom' in its world, and you to not have freedom. (They don't actually want real people to join the metaverse.)

Old World versus the New World, once again for the very first time.

Of course :)