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Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine

 
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Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
The idea of Jesus as part of a trinity was a Greek PAGAN concept adopted by early Christian missionaries to gain converts among the Greeks, and did not become a widely accepted Christian doctrine until after the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.



There are over 50 different versions of the bible and all of them contradict each-other , as well as they contradict themselves in there own versions !!!!!!

below is one of my favorite bible contradictions albeit it is off topic


1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel


2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”


UM.... *scratches head* Is Satan or God the lord of Davids people ??????


But I get of track this is about Jesus. You people believe the gospels are the "divined" truth of the lord through men .

So they should all agree in uniform fashion . let us examine the track record of homogeneousness.

Why do people believe that Jesus was the son of God and or the Resurrection ? and what is its first historical mention ?

Well the first to mention this is Paul who never even knew Jesus in acts but I will get to that later . Just want to make a brief point this is where the belief begins that Jesus is the son of God. Paul bases this on the Resurrection , so if that never happened his priori conclusion must be false

Gospel evidence Jesus did not die on the cross or was Resurrected
1. On the cross, he beseeched God for help (Matthew 27:46): "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" And in (Luke 22:42): "Saying, Father if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (This cup is the cup of death.)

2. Jesus' prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God, according to Luke, Hebrews, and James. Then, how could he still die on the cross? (Luke 22:43): "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." It means that an angel assured him that God would not leave him helpless. (Hebrews 5:7): "Who in the days of his flesh, when he [Jesus] had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared."

Jesus' prayers were "heard," which means that they were answered in a positive way by God. (James 5:16): "... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Jesus himself said (Matthew 7:7-10): "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you; For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth, and to him who knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?" If all of Jesus' prayers were accepted by God, including his prayer not to die on the cross, how could he still die on the cross then?

3. His legs were not broken by the Roman soldiers (John 19:32-33): "Then came the soldiers, and broke the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they broke not his legs." Can you rely on these soldiers for pronouncing the death, or did they want to save Jesus as they found him innocent?

4. If Jesus died on the cross, his blood would clot and no blood would gush out of his body when his side was pierced. But the Gospel states that blood and water came out (John 19:34): "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."

5. When the Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign of his true mission, he answered (Matthew 12:40): "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Disregard now the time factor, which was also not three days and three nights but one day (Saturday, daytime only) and two nights (Friday night and Saturday night).

question ? Was Jonas alive in the belly of the whale?

Yes he was

Then Jesus was still alive as he prophesied.

After the alleged crucifixion, the disciples thought that he was not the same Jesus in body but spiritualized, because resurrected bodies are spiritualized.How may I be certain a Resurrected body How do I know a Resurrected body becomes spiritualistic ? Because the bible tells me so (lmao)

(Luke 20: 34-36): "And answering said unto them: 'The children of the world marry, and are given in marriage. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and then resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Neither can they die any more for they are equal unto the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection’.”

then Jesus convinced them, by letting them touch his hands and feet, that he was the same person. As they could not believe him yet, he asked for meat to show them that he still ate like any living individual. Read (Luke 24:36-41): "And as they [the disciples] thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them: 'Peace be unto you.' But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them: 'Why are ye troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me.' And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them: 'Have ye here any meat?' And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."

.....Hmmm yet another fallacy . and I haven't even gotten to the literary ones yet between gospels






If you still believe that he died on the cross and became God because he was raised to heaven as Paul said in acts then why are not the other prophets who were raised to heaven considered God ?

Acts 17:18): "... And some [jewish people] said: 'What will this babbler say?' other some, He [Paul] seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus and the resurrection." Paul, who never saw Jesus, also admitted that the resurrection was his gospel (II Timothy 2:8): "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel." He was also the first who declared Jesus as Son of God (Acts 9:20): "And straightway he [Paul] preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."

So Christianity is not a teaching of Jesus but of Paul.


Other prophets raised into heaven to sit by god

(II Kings 2:1 1-12): "... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried ... And he saw him no more ...". Also Enoch was also taken by God to heaven (Genesis 5:24): "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not; for God took him". This was also repeated in (Hebrews 11:5): "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death, and was not found, because God translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."


These are only some of the logical arguments one can glean from the bible itself . Of course it would be a miracle( no pun intended) to get any Christian to read it using a critical thought
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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05/04/2012 08:06 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
p.s I made this a thread as I put quite a bit of work into this as a reply and "big shocker " not of the christains would even read it . Ironically it was called a "Wall of text" by the OP, which I find ironic as over 90 percent of it is text from the bible itself
Anonymous Coward
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05/04/2012 08:07 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
The idea of Jesus as part of a trinity was a Greek PAGAN concept adopted by early Christian missionaries to gain converts among the Greeks, and did not become a widely accepted Christian doctrine until after the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.



Of course it would be a miracle( no pun intended) to get any Christian to read it using a critical thought
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964


Critical this smartass.

Colossians 2:9)

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
(1 Timothy 1:15-17)

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners - of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
CoN didn't write this.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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05/04/2012 08:08 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
Did you read my argument from scripture ? .

quoting more contradictions does not help your cause
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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05/04/2012 08:09 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
Did you read my argument from scripture ? .

quoting more contradictions does not help your cause
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964



Please try reading the entire OP and subsequent argument

then reply
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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05/04/2012 08:11 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
Did you read my argument from scripture ? .

quoting more contradictions does not help your cause
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964



Please try reading the entire OP and subsequent argument

then reply
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964



After dealing witha small portion of logical contradiction in the gospels , we can move on to historical evidence ..... Oh wait there isn't any guess that section will be easy enough
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
You are all divine. YOu can walk, talk, think etc, are you not divine then. Jesus was NOT the Eternal Son of the Trinity, that IS a great misunderstanding about the nature of God. But that does not make him less than divine. I am not going to repeat tonight what jesus is and was. If you have read my stuff it won't matter anyway.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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05/04/2012 08:14 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
You are all divine. YOu can walk, talk, think etc, are you not divine then. Jesus was NOT the Eternal Son of the Trinity, that IS a great misunderstanding about the nature of God. But that does not make him less than divine. I am not going to repeat tonight what jesus is and was. If you have read my stuff it won't matter anyway.
 Quoting: Nobody in Particular


Have not reaqd your stuff, but I would not be opposed to it .

However I have constructed a logical argument from gospel scripture itself .
It would be useful to read and comprehend it before replying

This argument is a small part of a thesis paper I authored for a philosophy class . to present the entire thing here would be too long and no one would read it ( 30 plus pages ) However the " meat " of the first priori argument is here .
RedDemonSlayer

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05/04/2012 08:19 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
The idea of Jesus as part of a trinity was a Greek PAGAN concept adopted by early Christian missionaries to gain converts among the Greeks, and did not become a widely accepted Christian doctrine until after the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.



Of course it would be a miracle( no pun intended) to get any Christian to read it using a critical thought
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964


Critical this smartass.

Colossians 2:9)

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
(1 Timothy 1:15-17)

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners - of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
CoN didn't write this.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1419030


Is he a smartass for having his opinion?

You comment from a stance of fear. You have much to learn in speaking from love.

ds666a
"Humanity's moral decay and collapse into the eternal abyss of damnation continues..."

My favorite neg Karma left to me thus far !
"Delusional penis that believes anything..an idiot"
Anonymous Coward
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05/04/2012 08:22 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
Did you read my argument from scripture ? .

quoting more contradictions does not help your cause
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964


Your arguments are easily refuted.
Doctors have described the fluid build up around the heart during crucifiction. Google it.
There was an extra day you miss in the resurrection because the thursday before the friday was a holiday/feast. gty.org
The soldiers were pros at death. Speculation is not proof like the other speculative crap you spew.

Now about your original BS. The deciples called Jesus God.
Anonymous Coward
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05/04/2012 08:24 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
The idea of Jesus as part of a trinity was a Greek PAGAN concept adopted by early Christian missionaries to gain converts among the Greeks, and did not become a widely accepted Christian doctrine until after the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.



Of course it would be a miracle( no pun intended) to get any Christian to read it using a critical thought
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964


Critical this smartass.

Colossians 2:9)

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
(1 Timothy 1:15-17)

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners - of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
CoN didn't write this.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1419030


Is he a smartass for having his opinion?

You comment from a stance of fear. You have much to learn in speaking from love.

:ds666a:
 Quoting: RedDemonSlayer


No. He is a smartass for this comment
" Of course it would be a miracle( no pun intended) to get any Christian to read it using a critical thought"
You have much to learn about the resident trolls of GLP.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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05/04/2012 09:11 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
Not trolling , it is an experiment , an I get a Christian to actually look at my argument

I seriously want to know .


so far all I can get is response to catch phrases
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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05/04/2012 09:16 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
Did you read my argument from scripture ? .

quoting more contradictions does not help your cause
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964


Your arguments are easily refuted.
Doctors have described the fluid build up around the heart during crucifiction. Google it.
There was an extra day you miss in the resurrection because the thursday before the friday was a holiday/feast. gty.org
The soldiers were pros at death. Speculation is not proof like the other speculative crap you spew.

Now about your original BS. The deciples called Jesus God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1419030



No the first to preach Jesus divinity was Paul this is a known fact . Paul was not a disciple


and much of that is not speculation, what of the verses of jesus's prayer to god to save him ?

what of the jonah connection ?

I see you conveniently left some out .

some of it is speculative, but when there is an overbearing amount , it becomes Occam razor that is the point

Jesus was divine is not tenable , nor a parsimonious argument even from a gospel standpoint let alone mythist , being he is just another version in a long line of sun deities . The trinity itself was not conceived until the greek missionary , and not indoctrination until the council of Nicaea
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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05/04/2012 09:18 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
Did you read my argument from scripture ? .

quoting more contradictions does not help your cause
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964


Your arguments are easily refuted.
Doctors have described the fluid build up around the heart during crucifiction. Google it.
There was an extra day you miss in the resurrection because the thursday before the friday was a holiday/feast. gty.org
The soldiers were pros at death. Speculation is not proof like the other speculative crap you spew.

Now about your original BS. The deciples called Jesus God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1419030



No the first to preach Jesus divinity was Paul this is a known fact . Paul was not a disciple


and much of that is not speculation, what of the verses of jesus's prayer to god to save him ?

what of the jonah connection ?

I see you conveniently left some out .

some of it is speculative, but when there is an overbearing amount , it becomes Occam razor that is the point

Jesus was divine is not tenable , nor a parsimonious argument even from a gospel standpoint let alone mythist , being he is just another version in a long line of sun deities . The trinity itself was not conceived until the greek missionary , and not indoctrination until the council of Nicaea
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964



O r to put it mildly the very beliefs of Christian'S are Ad hoc and Post HoC additions

I did not even touch on the fact that there is zero historical evidence Jesus even existed
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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05/04/2012 09:24 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
Or what of the verse that Jesus was in the flesh and sat and ate with his disciples, when the bible clearly says those Resurrected are in spiritual form ?
Anonymous Coward
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05/04/2012 09:24 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
You are all divine. YOu can walk, talk, think etc, are you not divine then. Jesus was NOT the Eternal Son of the Trinity, that IS a great misunderstanding about the nature of God. But that does not make him less than divine. I am not going to repeat tonight what jesus is and was. If you have read my stuff it won't matter anyway.
 Quoting: Nobody in Particular


Have not reaqd your stuff, but I would not be opposed to it .

However I have constructed a logical argument from gospel scripture itself .
It would be useful to read and comprehend it before replying

This argument is a small part of a thesis paper I authored for a philosophy class . to present the entire thing here would be too long and no one would read it ( 30 plus pages ) However the " meat " of the first priori argument is here .
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964


but your gospel is a confused mess. I did look some at your post, and may review it more. Its been awhile since I read "the gospel" actually, the first 4 books anyway that were accepted and then changed out. The gospel was the teaching, the good news, the message that men/women are sons of God. Not a book.

the apostles made him more than was intended, they were confused themselves. But the real guilt for it belongs to the Catholic Church on what the Trinity IS. The Trinity is the Creational Force in 3 parts all working together and coming from the Paradise Isle of the central Universe. It is with great sadness that I witness Christians making him the one and only son of God, 2nd person trinity. Because these horrendous teaching has caused them to not see themselves as Sons of God and that is the very Message that Jesus brought, that they are Sons of God, in the womb so to speak, growing their spirits, life after life. The teaching of Jesus being 2nd Person trinity and the only son of God has caused a great regression of spiritual development on this world. 2nd Person Trinity, is the FIRST SON, not the only son.

Jesus IS returned, He and I are partnered as the 2nd Coming Organization on this world. ABundantHOpe. Long Story.

But those who really want a better idea of the teachings given would do better to read the teachings unearthed about 1964, which are the notes taken by his scribe Judas, who was NEVER the betrayer, and was deliberately framed for it. these were retrieved from the original grave. Jesus did NOT die on the cross and that IS in the bible. No magic resurrection. He told his buddies he would survive the crucifixion even, before it happen and it was him meeting with them after he had some healing given in the grave of those terrible injuries. He want on to India eventually, spending time first in Damascus for a few years. He passed this world in Kashmir when he was about 115 years of age.

Judas went to India with him. And lived with him until his own death a number of years before. The papers were returned to the grave in Jerssalem by his oldest son, after the death of Jesus. Jesus did marry, and have 5 children there.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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05/04/2012 09:29 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
You are all divine. YOu can walk, talk, think etc, are you not divine then. Jesus was NOT the Eternal Son of the Trinity, that IS a great misunderstanding about the nature of God. But that does not make him less than divine. I am not going to repeat tonight what jesus is and was. If you have read my stuff it won't matter anyway.
 Quoting: Nobody in Particular


Have not reaqd your stuff, but I would not be opposed to it .

However I have constructed a logical argument from gospel scripture itself .
It would be useful to read and comprehend it before replying

This argument is a small part of a thesis paper I authored for a philosophy class . to present the entire thing here would be too long and no one would read it ( 30 plus pages ) However the " meat " of the first priori argument is here .
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964


but your gospel is a confused mess. Its been awhile since I read mine actually, the first 4 books anyway that were accepted and then changed out.

the apostles made him more than was intended, they were confused themselves. But the real guilt for it belongs to the Catholic Church on what the Trinity IS. The Trinity is the Creational Force in 3 parts all working together and coming from the Paradise Isle of the central Universe. It is with great sadness that I witness Christians making him the one and only son of God, 2nd person trinity. Because these horrendous teaching has caused them to not see themselves as Sons of God and that is the very Message that Jesus brought, that they are Sons of God, in the womb so to speak, growing their spirits, life after life. The teaching of Jesus being 2nd Person trinity and the only son of God has caused a great regression of spiritual development on this world. 2nd Person Trinity, is the FIRST SON, not the only son.

Jesus IS returned, He and I are partnered as the 2nd Coming Organization on this world. ABundantHOpe. Long Story.

But those who really want a better idea of the teachings given would do better to read the teachings unearthed about 1964, which are the notes taken by his scribe Judas, who was NEVER the betrayer, and was deliberately framed for it. these were retrieved from the original grave. Jesus did NOT die on the cross and that IS in the bible. No magic resurrection. He told his buddies he would survive the crucifixion even, before it happen and it was him meeting with them after he had some healing given in the grave of those terrible injuries. He want on to India eventually, spending time first in Damascus for a few years. He passed this world in Kashmir when he was about 115 years of age.

Judas went to India with him. And lived with him until his own death a number of years before. The papers were returned to the grave in Jerssalem by his oldest son, after the death of Jesus. Jesus did marry, and have 5 children there.
 Quoting: Nobody in Particular


You have a very Gnostic approach to his teachings, which I myself find much more appealing .There are gnostic texts that say he survived the crucifixion as it was held on private land ( they drugged him so he appeared dead) and the Muslim account that a surrogate took his place . Simon of Cyrene I believe
Anonymous Coward
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05/04/2012 09:33 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
Or what of the verse that Jesus was in the flesh and sat and ate with his disciples, when the bible clearly says those Resurrected are in spiritual form ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964


the bible is not so accurate on that either. Those resurrected to the mansion worlds are given new bodies there. They are in "soul form" not spirit form actually. Their morontial souls require bodies for a very long tiem, the transformation to a spirit being is a gradual long process. Jesus was INCARNATE. HIS BODY WAS LIKE OUR BODIES, except he had far better DNA for the incarnation than is present on earth. the body died when he was 115 years old just as all bodies on this world do.

jesus was not resurrected. His "ascension to heaven" was boarding a craft to take him to Damascus. Jesus was TWO BEINGs using the same body. A much improved semiphysical body was required for the incarnation. The male DNA came from Gabriel of Nebadon. Jesus' body was custom created in a laboratory in "heaven". Gabriels DNA was mixed with Mary's Egg. That is the why of the so called virgin birth. People long ago knew this when masters incarnated into this world, they have forgotten. Genetists from the very misunderstood heaven do these things. My own body is such. My embryo was created from both my mothers and fathers eggs though with some extras, which is why I was born telepathic, and which lead me eventually to this role.

Oh the two beings were Michael of Nebadon, the Creator Son of this universe, which is not the 2nd person Trinity. The creator sons have the Father and the Son as their parents. We were visited by a GREAT SON. Michael is the FATHER of This particular sector of the creation. He is thus GOD of Nebadon. So it can be truly said, that God so loved the world, he brought himself. The other was a highly advanced soul named Esu Immanuel. As I have posted the body did not die. Michael LEFT at that time, and Esu continued to use the body and eventually arrived in India.
KlLLUMINATI

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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
The idea of Jesus as part of a trinity was a Greek PAGAN concept adopted by early Christian missionaries to gain converts among the Greeks, and did not become a widely accepted Christian doctrine until after the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.



There are over 50 different versions of the bible and all of them contradict each-other , as well as they contradict themselves in there own versions !!!!!!

below is one of my favorite bible contradictions albeit it is off topic


1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel


2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”


UM.... *scratches head* Is Satan or God the lord of Davids people ??????


But I get of track this is about Jesus. You people believe the gospels are the "divined" truth of the lord through men .

So they should all agree in uniform fashion . let us examine the track record of homogeneousness.

Why do people believe that Jesus was the son of God and or the Resurrection ? and what is its first historical mention ?

Well the first to mention this is Paul who never even knew Jesus in acts but I will get to that later . Just want to make a brief point this is where the belief begins that Jesus is the son of God. Paul bases this on the Resurrection , so if that never happened his priori conclusion must be false

Gospel evidence Jesus did not die on the cross or was Resurrected
1. On the cross, he beseeched God for help (Matthew 27:46): "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" And in (Luke 22:42): "Saying, Father if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (This cup is the cup of death.)

2. Jesus' prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God, according to Luke, Hebrews, and James. Then, how could he still die on the cross? (Luke 22:43): "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." It means that an angel assured him that God would not leave him helpless. (Hebrews 5:7): "Who in the days of his flesh, when he [Jesus] had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared."

Jesus' prayers were "heard," which means that they were answered in a positive way by God. (James 5:16): "... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Jesus himself said (Matthew 7:7-10): "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you; For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth, and to him who knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?" If all of Jesus' prayers were accepted by God, including his prayer not to die on the cross, how could he still die on the cross then?

3. His legs were not broken by the Roman soldiers (John 19:32-33): "Then came the soldiers, and broke the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they broke not his legs." Can you rely on these soldiers for pronouncing the death, or did they want to save Jesus as they found him innocent?

4. If Jesus died on the cross, his blood would clot and no blood would gush out of his body when his side was pierced. But the Gospel states that blood and water came out (John 19:34): "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."

5. When the Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign of his true mission, he answered (Matthew 12:40): "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Disregard now the time factor, which was also not three days and three nights but one day (Saturday, daytime only) and two nights (Friday night and Saturday night).

question ? Was Jonas alive in the belly of the whale?

Yes he was

Then Jesus was still alive as he prophesied.

After the alleged crucifixion, the disciples thought that he was not the same Jesus in body but spiritualized, because resurrected bodies are spiritualized.How may I be certain a Resurrected body How do I know a Resurrected body becomes spiritualistic ? Because the bible tells me so (lmao)

(Luke 20: 34-36): "And answering said unto them: 'The children of the world marry, and are given in marriage. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and then resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Neither can they die any more for they are equal unto the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection’.”

then Jesus convinced them, by letting them touch his hands and feet, that he was the same person. As they could not believe him yet, he asked for meat to show them that he still ate like any living individual. Read (Luke 24:36-41): "And as they [the disciples] thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them: 'Peace be unto you.' But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them: 'Why are ye troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me.' And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them: 'Have ye here any meat?' And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."

.....Hmmm yet another fallacy . and I haven't even gotten to the literary ones yet between gospels






If you still believe that he died on the cross and became God because he was raised to heaven as Paul said in acts then why are not the other prophets who were raised to heaven considered God ?

Acts 17:18): "... And some [jewish people] said: 'What will this babbler say?' other some, He [Paul] seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus and the resurrection." Paul, who never saw Jesus, also admitted that the resurrection was his gospel (II Timothy 2:8): "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel." He was also the first who declared Jesus as Son of God (Acts 9:20): "And straightway he [Paul] preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."

So Christianity is not a teaching of Jesus but of Paul.


Other prophets raised into heaven to sit by god

(II Kings 2:1 1-12): "... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried ... And he saw him no more ...". Also Enoch was also taken by God to heaven (Genesis 5:24): "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not; for God took him". This was also repeated in (Hebrews 11:5): "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death, and was not found, because God translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."


These are only some of the logical arguments one can glean from the bible itself . Of course it would be a miracle( no pun intended) to get any Christian to read it using a critical thought
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964



What peer reviewed publication was this evidence published in ? I mean are you first person to stumble upon this ?
Your attempts of personification do not make sense.

You make a fallacy of division and your begging the question(circular argument)

We know Jesus is worshipped and Jesus is prayed to this shows Jesus is divine.
She just goes a little mad sometimes. We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?
-Norman Bates

I think that rich people should live like poor people, and poor people should live like rich people, and change every week....
-Tupac Shakur

Somebody help me, tell me where to go from here cause even Thugs cry, but do the Lord care?
-Tupac Shakur

I don't have no fear of death. My only fear is coming back reincarnated.
-Tupac Shakur

I believe in human beings, and that all human beings should be respected as such, regardless of their color.
-Malcolm X

A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything.
-Malcolm X

When there’s no more room in Hell, the dead will walk the Earth.
-Dawn of the Dead

What an excellent day for an exorcism.
-The Exorcist
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 13294940
United States
05/04/2012 10:12 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
There are over 50 different versions of the bible and all of them contradict each-other , as well as they contradict themselves in there own versions !!!!!!

below is one of my favorite bible contradictions albeit it is off topic


1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel


2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”


you are taking a story from one book and using it to fit into a story of another book. 2 different stories neither having anything to do with the other.
If you take the time to read 1st samuel you will see (let me make it easy for you in chapters 7,8,9 God was talking to samuel
1 samuel chapter 8
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
from this passage you can see that God was angry with israel, they were discussing how samuels sons were unfair and would not accept them as their king.
so if you take the time to read the books of samuel 1&2 you will see "Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel

I have proven you to be a deceiver, it is not necessary for me to continue because if you will lie about one of your statements, you will lie about them all.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 11239964
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05/04/2012 10:21 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
There are over 50 different versions of the bible and all of them contradict each-other , as well as they contradict themselves in there own versions !!!!!!

below is one of my favorite bible contradictions albeit it is off topic


1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel


2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”


you are taking a story from one book and using it to fit into a story of another book. 2 different stories neither having anything to do with the other.
If you take the time to read 1st samuel you will see (let me make it easy for you in chapters 7,8,9 God was talking to samuel
1 samuel chapter 8
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
from this passage you can see that God was angry with israel, they were discussing how samuels sons were unfair and would not accept them as their king.
so if you take the time to read the books of samuel 1&2 you will see "Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel

I have proven you to be a deceiver, it is not necessary for me to continue because if you will lie about one of your statements, you will lie about them all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13294940



from on e book .. it is all the word of god and all the christian faith. you make little sense in any " sense" of the word

. deceiver ? is this some christian term ?

I am not trying to deceive anyone I am trying to make an argument from logic, not emotion like you this is one of the main problems I (and many others) have with the bible,l it has over 50 different translations all which contradict each-other, and all which contradict themselves
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 11239964
United States
05/04/2012 10:24 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
There are over 50 different versions of the bible and all of them contradict each-other , as well as they contradict themselves in there own versions !!!!!!

below is one of my favorite bible contradictions albeit it is off topic


1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel


2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”


you are taking a story from one book and using it to fit into a story of another book. 2 different stories neither having anything to do with the other.
If you take the time to read 1st samuel you will see (let me make it easy for you in chapters 7,8,9 God was talking to samuel
1 samuel chapter 8
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
from this passage you can see that God was angry with israel, they were discussing how samuels sons were unfair and would not accept them as their king.
so if you take the time to read the books of samuel 1&2 you will see "Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel

I have proven you to be a deceiver, it is not necessary for me to continue because if you will lie about one of your statements, you will lie about them all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13294940



from on e book .. it is all the word of god and all the christian faith. you make little sense in any " sense" of the word

. deceiver ? is this some christian term ?

I am not trying to deceive anyone I am trying to make an argument from logic, not emotion like you this is one of the main problems I (and many others) have with the bible,l it has over 50 different translations all which contradict each-other, and all which contradict themselves
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964



And i have read Samuel , I have read the entire bible numerous times . and as I pointed out in one book it says Satan tells them to make an army census and another book it says god did , so which is it god or Satan, they are talking about the same circumstance . The only thing you have proven ius you are too emotional to make any sense


Do you know what dogma is ,, shall I start on that next ?
KlLLUMINATI

User ID: 11546392
United States
05/04/2012 10:41 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
There are over 50 different versions of the bible and all of them contradict each-other , as well as they contradict themselves in there own versions !!!!!!

below is one of my favorite bible contradictions albeit it is off topic


1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel


2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”


you are taking a story from one book and using it to fit into a story of another book. 2 different stories neither having anything to do with the other.
If you take the time to read 1st samuel you will see (let me make it easy for you in chapters 7,8,9 God was talking to samuel
1 samuel chapter 8
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
from this passage you can see that God was angry with israel, they were discussing how samuels sons were unfair and would not accept them as their king.
so if you take the time to read the books of samuel 1&2 you will see "Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel

I have proven you to be a deceiver, it is not necessary for me to continue because if you will lie about one of your statements, you will lie about them all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13294940



from on e book .. it is all the word of god and all the christian faith. you make little sense in any " sense" of the word

. deceiver ? is this some christian term ?

I am not trying to deceive anyone I am trying to make an argument from logic, not emotion like you this is one of the main problems I (and many others) have with the bible,l it has over 50 different translations all which contradict each-other, and all which contradict themselves
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964



And i have read Samuel , I have read the entire bible numerous times . and as I pointed out in one book it says Satan tells them to make an army census and another book it says god did , so which is it god or Satan, they are talking about the same circumstance . The only thing you have proven ius you are too emotional to make any sense


Do you know what dogma is ,, shall I start on that next ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964



Compared to other ancient documents, the NT for example has far more textual evidence in its favor than any other ancient writing. If the Bible cannot be trusted as being reliable because it has only a small percentage of copyist errors, then neither can the other ancient documents that have far less textual support be trusted. In other words, to be consistent we would have to reject the iliad, the gallic wars, plato's tetralogies, all aristotle's works, hoerodetus history, and euripedes writings. Are the critics willing to disregard all those writings which are far less well preserved if we throw out the bible as being reliable ? You should if you are fair in how they apply your criticism. Since basically no one discards those writings as being so bad that they can't be trusted why would anyone apply the double standard to the bible unless you have an agenda. We can see that the bible is an ancient document that has withstood thousands of years of transmission with accuracy and clarity, far more so than the great works of ancient times. We can trust it to be what it says it is the word of God.


Homer (Iliad) was written 900 BC the earliest copy is from 400 BC that is 500 years from when it was written to the earliest known copy.....there are 643 copies compared 24000 copies of the NT if you are truly looking at this with an open minded view you can see my point.
She just goes a little mad sometimes. We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?
-Norman Bates

I think that rich people should live like poor people, and poor people should live like rich people, and change every week....
-Tupac Shakur

Somebody help me, tell me where to go from here cause even Thugs cry, but do the Lord care?
-Tupac Shakur

I don't have no fear of death. My only fear is coming back reincarnated.
-Tupac Shakur

I believe in human beings, and that all human beings should be respected as such, regardless of their color.
-Malcolm X

A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything.
-Malcolm X

When there’s no more room in Hell, the dead will walk the Earth.
-Dawn of the Dead

What an excellent day for an exorcism.
-The Exorcist
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 15532321
United Kingdom
05/04/2012 10:50 PM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
The idea of Jesus as part of a trinity
-----------

I am the father

[link to cosmicgnostic.com]

The son

[link to www.fornerds.org]

And the holy ghost

[link to www.jiroolcott.com]



... :)

[link to www.holoscience.com]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 11239964
United States
05/05/2012 12:16 AM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
There are over 50 different versions of the bible and all of them contradict each-other , as well as they contradict themselves in there own versions !!!!!!

below is one of my favorite bible contradictions albeit it is off topic


1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel


2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”


you are taking a story from one book and using it to fit into a story of another book. 2 different stories neither having anything to do with the other.
If you take the time to read 1st samuel you will see (let me make it easy for you in chapters 7,8,9 God was talking to samuel
1 samuel chapter 8
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
from this passage you can see that God was angry with israel, they were discussing how samuels sons were unfair and would not accept them as their king.
so if you take the time to read the books of samuel 1&2 you will see "Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel

I have proven you to be a deceiver, it is not necessary for me to continue because if you will lie about one of your statements, you will lie about them all.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13294940



from on e book .. it is all the word of god and all the christian faith. you make little sense in any " sense" of the word

. deceiver ? is this some christian term ?

I am not trying to deceive anyone I am trying to make an argument from logic, not emotion like you this is one of the main problems I (and many others) have with the bible,l it has over 50 different translations all which contradict each-other, and all which contradict themselves
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964



And i have read Samuel , I have read the entire bible numerous times . and as I pointed out in one book it says Satan tells them to make an army census and another book it says god did , so which is it god or Satan, they are talking about the same circumstance . The only thing you have proven ius you are too emotional to make any sense


Do you know what dogma is ,, shall I start on that next ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964



Compared to other ancient documents, the NT for example has far more textual evidence in its favor than any other ancient writing. If the Bible cannot be trusted as being reliable because it has only a small percentage of copyist errors, then neither can the other ancient documents that have far less textual support be trusted. In other words, to be consistent we would have to reject the iliad, the gallic wars, plato's tetralogies, all aristotle's works, hoerodetus history, and euripedes writings. Are the critics willing to disregard all those writings which are far less well preserved if we throw out the bible as being reliable ? You should if you are fair in how they apply your criticism. Since basically no one discards those writings as being so bad that they can't be trusted why would anyone apply the double standard to the bible unless you have an agenda. We can see that the bible is an ancient document that has withstood thousands of years of transmission with accuracy and clarity, far more so than the great works of ancient times. We can trust it to be what it says it is the word of God.


Homer (Iliad) was written 900 BC the earliest copy is from 400 BC that is 500 years from when it was written to the earliest known copy.....there are 643 copies compared 24000 copies of the NT if you are truly looking at this with an open minded view you can see my point.
 Quoting: KlLLUMINATI


Where to start with this . First of all I strongly disagree the NT as far as Jesus's existence(let alone deity status)has far less textual evidence because it has ZERO secular historical support, and no NONSECULAR that is not Post and or Ad Hoc !!!!!! . Secondly the point you commit is in support of my argument when fallacy is removed.

You are making a transitional fallacy. Making an argument from comparison that is an illusion
the Iliad is a fictional account that uses real events such as the Trojan war. it is not a religious text that is attempting to prove the divinity of a person in which NO OTHER HISTORICAL EVIDENCE EXISTS ( A deity no less). There is evidence the Iliad existed in extensive previous oral language before its first copy that is not AD hoc . So to not make a transition fallacy your point would have to be " the oral history for the Iliad prior to its written form is ad hoc " And we know this not to be true. The Minoan to Greek language change happened during this time period so Homer was most likely not even literate. However there is a long oral tradition that predates the Iliad in written form that is established from secularism by multiple sources from other cultures .However I will concede it is possible no "one" person composed it . Or it is also possible Homer did not exist. But conceding this only supports my priori thesis .
The fact of the matter is there does not exist any "period" secular writings or mentioning of Jesus .

I am open minded enough to concede that believing in some Historical figures does require a certain degree of "faith", However the argument from parsimony is less convincing as they are not attempting to prove someones divinity .
KlLLUMINATI

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05/05/2012 08:50 AM
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Re: Evidence in the gospels Jesus was not divine
...



from on e book .. it is all the word of god and all the christian faith. you make little sense in any " sense" of the word

. deceiver ? is this some christian term ?

I am not trying to deceive anyone I am trying to make an argument from logic, not emotion like you this is one of the main problems I (and many others) have with the bible,l it has over 50 different translations all which contradict each-other, and all which contradict themselves
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964



And i have read Samuel , I have read the entire bible numerous times . and as I pointed out in one book it says Satan tells them to make an army census and another book it says god did , so which is it god or Satan, they are talking about the same circumstance . The only thing you have proven ius you are too emotional to make any sense


Do you know what dogma is ,, shall I start on that next ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964



Compared to other ancient documents, the NT for example has far more textual evidence in its favor than any other ancient writing. If the Bible cannot be trusted as being reliable because it has only a small percentage of copyist errors, then neither can the other ancient documents that have far less textual support be trusted. In other words, to be consistent we would have to reject the iliad, the gallic wars, plato's tetralogies, all aristotle's works, hoerodetus history, and euripedes writings. Are the critics willing to disregard all those writings which are far less well preserved if we throw out the bible as being reliable ? You should if you are fair in how they apply your criticism. Since basically no one discards those writings as being so bad that they can't be trusted why would anyone apply the double standard to the bible unless you have an agenda. We can see that the bible is an ancient document that has withstood thousands of years of transmission with accuracy and clarity, far more so than the great works of ancient times. We can trust it to be what it says it is the word of God.


Homer (Iliad) was written 900 BC the earliest copy is from 400 BC that is 500 years from when it was written to the earliest known copy.....there are 643 copies compared 24000 copies of the NT if you are truly looking at this with an open minded view you can see my point.
 Quoting: KlLLUMINATI


Where to start with this . First of all I strongly disagree the NT as far as Jesus's existence(let alone deity status)has far less textual evidence because it has ZERO secular historical support, and no NONSECULAR that is not Post and or Ad Hoc !!!!!! . Secondly the point you commit is in support of my argument when fallacy is removed.

You are making a transitional fallacy. Making an argument from comparison that is an illusion
the Iliad is a fictional account that uses real events such as the Trojan war. it is not a religious text that is attempting to prove the divinity of a person in which NO OTHER HISTORICAL EVIDENCE EXISTS ( A deity no less). There is evidence the Iliad existed in extensive previous oral language before its first copy that is not AD hoc . So to not make a transition fallacy your point would have to be " the oral history for the Iliad prior to its written form is ad hoc " And we know this not to be true. The Minoan to Greek language change happened during this time period so Homer was most likely not even literate. However there is a long oral tradition that predates the Iliad in written form that is established from secularism by multiple sources from other cultures .However I will concede it is possible no "one" person composed it . Or it is also possible Homer did not exist. But conceding this only supports my priori thesis .
The fact of the matter is there does not exist any "period" secular writings or mentioning of Jesus .

I am open minded enough to concede that believing in some Historical figures does require a certain degree of "faith", However the argument from parsimony is less convincing as they are not attempting to prove someones divinity .
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11239964




Skeptics like Ellen Johnson cite the "lack of secular history" for Jesus as evidence that he didn’t exist. Yet there is very little documentation for any person from the time of Christ. Most ancient historical documents have been destroyed through the centuries.

According to E. M. Blaiklock, who has catalogued most of the non-Christian writings of the Roman Empire,"practically nothing exists from the time of Christ", even for great secular leaders such as Caesar. Yet no historian questions Caesar’s existence.

Mythical gods are depicted as superheroes living out human fantasies and lusts, the gospels portray Jesus as a man of humility, compassion and moral character. His followers present him as a real person for whom they willingly gave their lives.

The non Christian scientist Einstein stated "No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.… No man can deny the fact that Jesus existed, nor that his sayings are beautiful."

There are four historical facts which must be explained by any adequate historical hypothesis:

(1)Jesus’ burial
(2)the discovery of his empty tomb
(3)his post-mortem appearances
(4)the origin of the disciples’ belief in his resurrection.

Your argument its not merely a failure it is an abject failure. That is hopelessly fallacious.

When you look at them, the gospels all agree that Jesus of was crucified in jerusalem by roman authority during passover having been arrested and convicted on charges of blasphemy by the juuuish Sanhedrin and then slandered before the roman governor pilate on charges of treason. He died within several hours and was buried friday afternoon by Joseph in a tomb which was sealed with a stone. Certain followers of Jesus including Mary Magdalene who is always named, having observed his interment, visited his tomb early Sunday morning, only to find it empty. Thereafter, Jesus appeared alive from the dead to his disciples, including peter, who then became proclaimers of the message of his resurrection.

All four Gospels attest to all of those facts. More details could be added simply by including facts mentioned in three of the gospels three out of the four.

So this debate really isnt over these facts. The question is the best explanation of the facts. And the objection that you offer is not the objection of the historian. This is not a historical argument this is a philosophical argument, which is based on a misunderstanding of the probabilities involved. Once that is cleared up, I see no reason at all why you cannot infer on the basis of the historical evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. Making him divine.
She just goes a little mad sometimes. We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?
-Norman Bates

I think that rich people should live like poor people, and poor people should live like rich people, and change every week....
-Tupac Shakur

Somebody help me, tell me where to go from here cause even Thugs cry, but do the Lord care?
-Tupac Shakur

I don't have no fear of death. My only fear is coming back reincarnated.
-Tupac Shakur

I believe in human beings, and that all human beings should be respected as such, regardless of their color.
-Malcolm X

A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything.
-Malcolm X

When there’s no more room in Hell, the dead will walk the Earth.
-Dawn of the Dead

What an excellent day for an exorcism.
-The Exorcist





GLP