Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal | |
TARDIS
User ID: 832032 Canada 01/25/2010 12:17 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Sir.Kalin
(OP) User ID: 873438 United States 01/25/2010 12:23 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Some official source... Quoting: TARDISOfficial or not, just what is official? The other does back up what he says. :LordKayleSig4: - "Your best investment is ammo, because it's going to weird quickly." - AC 1196210 - "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson's Personal Seal |
TXGal4Truth
User ID: 864252 United States 01/25/2010 12:24 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Bugeater
User ID: 871715 United States 01/25/2010 12:24 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Will your type never learn? The more you try to hide the truth the more you spark people's interest. People instinctively know when information is being attacked constantly or efforts are made to hide it then it's probably the information you need to know. Not sure what scares you so much about Jesus, unless.... |
Sir.Kalin
(OP) User ID: 873438 United States 01/25/2010 12:25 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Will your type never learn? The more you try to hide the truth the more you spark people's interest. Quoting: BugeaterPeople instinctively know when information is being attacked constantly or efforts are made to hide it then it's probably the information you need to know. Not sure what scares you so much about Jesus, unless.... Why don't you read the article and base your comments on or towards that? "As to the divinity of Jesus Christ, I feel I shall find the answer after I'm dead, and with much less turmoil." ~ Benjamin Franklin Last Edited by Lord.Kayle on 01/25/2010 12:27 AM :LordKayleSig4: - "Your best investment is ammo, because it's going to weird quickly." - AC 1196210 - "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson's Personal Seal |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 719231 United States 01/25/2010 12:26 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 873435 Israel 01/25/2010 12:30 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity. That is the main thing Jesus was nothing in his own generation even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him all written there was added late and is fake as all agree |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 754098 United States 01/25/2010 12:32 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 873435That is the main thing Jesus was nothing in his own generation even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him all written there was added late and is fake as all agree You are either a liar or a deluded foo. |
TXGal4Truth
User ID: 864252 United States 01/25/2010 12:32 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 873435That is the main thing Jesus was nothing in his own generation even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him all written there was added late and is fake as all agree Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear. First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF". Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day. Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3 Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest. But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned. So have I now become your enemy for telling you the TRUTH? Galatians 4:16 *********************************** You call me paranoid. I call you uninformed. :tgdmwt: |
Art Deco
User ID: 473495 United States 01/25/2010 12:32 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | After all, look how many high holy days have been adapted from other "pagan" dates. If someone told me the stories in the bible were based on even earlier stories, I don't think it would my world crashing to the ground. The thing that annoys me, is knowing the writings, both allowed and forbidden in the bible were for political, not religious reasons. In ten years we'll look back on this moment, laugh nervously, and quickly change the subject. |
TXGal4Truth
User ID: 864252 United States 01/25/2010 12:34 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I will say this LAST thing. It takes a lot of FAITH to believe in ANYTHING. What you choose to believe in is up to you. Have fun with your thread Sir. So have I now become your enemy for telling you the TRUTH? Galatians 4:16 *********************************** You call me paranoid. I call you uninformed. :tgdmwt: |
ac User ID: 870092 United States 01/25/2010 12:35 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Yes the dead sea scrolls read somewhat like the New Testament because they were taken from the Old Testament which prophecied of the Coming of the Messiah. What you read in the New Testament are these scriptures fulfilled. The Essenes that had broken off from Israel became a separate sect than that of the Pharisees that ruled from Jerusalem. Unfortunately when the Lord Jesus Christ confronted them they determined that He must die so that they can continue to rule at the behest of the Roman Empire. The Essenes were not a part of the Kingdom that the Lord Jesus Christ established, before or after, unless they converted from the cult they established according to their own written scrolls. No, John was not apart of their organization. Remember, his father was a temple priest. No offshoot cults allowed there. |
Bugeater
User ID: 871715 United States 01/25/2010 12:36 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Why don't you read the article and base your comments on or towards that? Quoting: Sir.Kalin"As to the divinity of Jesus Christ, I feel I shall find the answer after I'm dead, and with much less turmoil." ~ Benjamin Franklin I did and I did. You don't understand that's on you. Jesus was in the Old Testament too, maybe you missed him? |
mathetes
User ID: 793782 United States 01/25/2010 12:42 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | In my book The Christ Conspiracy Quoting: Sir.Kalinacharya s? Seriously? I thought you were at least an intelligent atheist. Why don't you just quote Graves or Freke & Gandy as well? Dorothy M. Murdock aka as acharya s is a a pseudo scholar at best and btw you did know she tried to start her own religion at one time,with her of course as the high priestess I debated acharya s several years ago on a radio show...after not being able to show any original sources for her claims,she simply told her followers to ignore me Last Edited by mathetes on 01/25/2010 12:49 AM For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 871825 United States 01/25/2010 12:47 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Sumo
User ID: 768896 United States 01/25/2010 12:49 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Will your type never learn? The more you try to hide the truth the more you spark people's interest. Quoting: BugeaterPeople instinctively know when information is being attacked constantly or efforts are made to hide it then it's probably the information you need to know. Not sure what scares you so much about Jesus, unless.... I'll tell what scares me about"jesus", people who worship him! The Joke's Over. Hunter S. Thompson |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 873435 Israel 01/25/2010 12:50 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity. Quoting: TXGal4TruthThat is the main thing Jesus was nothing in his own generation even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him all written there was added late and is fake as all agree Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear. First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF". Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day. Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3 Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest. But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned. All experts of this text know these "Jesus" passages to be latter additions to the text being out of context and character of the original work That this passage is a false fabrication is admitted by Ittigius, Blondel, Le Clerc, Vandale, Bishop Warburton, and Tanaquil Faber.'" (CMU, 47) Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, likely interpolated by Catholic Church historian Eusebius in the fourth century. So thorough and universal has been this debunking that very few scholars of repute continued to cite the passage after the turn of the 19th century. Indeed, the TF was rarely mentioned, except to note that it was a forgery, and numerous books by a variety of authorities over a period of 200 or so years basically took it for granted that the Testimonium Flavianum in its entirety was spurious, an interpolation and a forgery. As Dr. Gordon Stein relates: "...the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars." So well understood was this fact of forgery that these numerous authorities did not spend their precious time and space rehashing the arguments against the TF's authenticity. Nevertheless, in the past few decades apologists of questionable integrity and credibility have glommed onto the TF, because this short and dubious passage represents the most "concrete" secular, non-biblical reference to a man who purportedly shook up the world. In spite of the past debunking, the debate is currently confined to those who think the TF was original to Josephus but was Christianized, and those who credulously and self-servingly accept it as "genuine" in its entirety. To repeat, this passage was so completely dissected by scholars of high repute and standing--the majority of them pious Christians--that it was for decades understood by subsequent scholars as having been proved in toto a forgery, such that these succeeding scholars did not even mention it, unless to acknowledge it as false. (In addition to being repetitious, numerous quotes will be presented here, because a strong show of rational consensus is desperately needed when it comes to matters of blind, unscientific and irrational faith.) The scholars who so conclusively proved the TF a forgery made their mark at the end of the 18th century and into the 20th, when a sudden reversal was implemented, with popular opinion hemming and hawing its way back first to the "partial interpolation theory" and in recent times, among the third-rate apologists, to the notion that the whole TF is "genuine." As Earl Doherty says, in "Josephus Unbound": "Now, it is a curious fact that older generations of scholars had no trouble dismissing this entire passage as a Christian construction. Charles Guignebert, for example, in his Jesus (1956, p.17), calls it 'a pure Christian forgery.' Before him, Lardner, Harnack and Schurer, along with others, declared it entirely spurious. Today, most serious scholars have decided the passage is a mix: original parts rubbing shoulders with later Christian additions." The earlier scholarship that proved the entire TF to be fraudulent was determined by intense scrutiny by some of the most erudite, and mainly Christian, writers of the time, in a number of countries, their works written in a variety of languages, but particularly German, French and English. Their general conclusions, as elucidated by Christian authority Dr. Lardner, and related here by the author of Christian Mythology Unveiled (c. 1842), include the following reasons for doubting the authenticity of the TF as a whole:" a scholarly study of this travesty is found at this link [link to www.truthbeknown.com] Every one who is objective knows the "jesus" in Josephus is a latter addition thank God for these addition or this text like many other Jewish texts would have been destroyed by the church and lost for eternity It was only saved for the later "Jesus" additions If jesus was really what people want believe Josephus would have devoted more than a couple paragraphs to the subject ? Following is a list of important Christian authorities who studied and/or mentioned Josephus but not the Jesus passage: * Justin Martyr (c. 100-c. 165), who obviously pored over Josephus's works, makes no mention of the TF. * Theophilus (d. 180), Bishop of Antioch--no mention of the TF. * Irenaeus (c. 120/140-c. 200/203), saint and compiler of the New Testament, has not a word about the TF. * Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-211/215), influential Greek theologian and prolific Christian writer, head of the Alexandrian school, says nothing about the TF. * Origen (c. 185-c. 254), no mention of the TF and specifically states that Josephus did not believe Jesus was "the Christ." * Hippolytus (c. 170-c. 235), saint and martyr, nothing about the TF. * The author of the ancient Syriac text, "History of Armenia," refers to Josephus but not the TF. * Minucius Felix (d. c. 250), lawyer and Christian convert--no mention of the TF. * Anatolius (230-c. 270/280)--no mention of TF. * Chrysostom (c. 347-407), saint and Syrian prelate, not a word about the TF. * Methodius, saint of the 9th century--even at this late date there were apparently copies of Josephus without the TF, as Methodius makes no mention of it. * Photius (c. 820-891), Patriarch of Constantinople, not a word about the TF, again indicating copies of Josephus devoid of the passage, or, perhaps, a rejection of it because it was understood to be fraudulent. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 432415 United States 01/25/2010 12:51 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
coolhandluke74
User ID: 864115 United States 01/25/2010 12:52 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
mathetes
User ID: 793782 United States 01/25/2010 12:53 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Will your type never learn? The more you try to hide the truth the more you spark people's interest. Quoting: SumoPeople instinctively know when information is being attacked constantly or efforts are made to hide it then it's probably the information you need to know. Not sure what scares you so much about Jesus, unless.... I'll tell what scares me about"jesus", people who worship him! boo! lol All kidding aside that is the weakest excuse on record...its your immortal soul, don't let clichés & excuses such as "they're all hypocrites" deprive you of a happiness & joy that is indescribable For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. |
Art Deco
User ID: 473495 United States 01/25/2010 12:53 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I will say this LAST thing. It takes a lot of FAITH to believe in ANYTHING. What you choose to believe in is up to you. Quoting: TXGal4TruthAmen! (and no, I wasn't being sarcastic) In ten years we'll look back on this moment, laugh nervously, and quickly change the subject. |
Sir.Kalin
(OP) User ID: 873438 United States 01/25/2010 12:53 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Can you imagine the terror Quoting: Anonymous Coward 871825to spend your whole life opposing Jesus Christ and then one day to die and suddenly find yourself standing before Jesus Christ? Yes I was raised with that imaginary terror. But after growing up and being able to think for myself, I came to the realization that IF Jesus really exists, Then he won't be an asshole like that. So please don't worry about the eternal state of my soul so much. Thank you Last Edited by Lord.Kayle on 01/25/2010 01:09 AM :LordKayleSig4: - "Your best investment is ammo, because it's going to weird quickly." - AC 1196210 - "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson's Personal Seal |
Sir.Kalin
(OP) User ID: 873438 United States 01/25/2010 12:56 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I debated acharya s several years ago on a radio show...after not being able to show any original sources for her claims,she simply told her followers to ignore me Quoting: mathetesI am not an atheist Mathetes. I am a deist. Go ahead and research it, here's a good site I recommend: [link to www.deism.com] :LordKayleSig4: - "Your best investment is ammo, because it's going to weird quickly." - AC 1196210 - "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson's Personal Seal |
TXGal4Truth
User ID: 864252 United States 01/25/2010 12:57 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Can you imagine the terror Quoting: Sir.Kalinto spend your whole life opposing Jesus Christ and then one day to die and suddenly find yourself standing before Jesus Christ? Yes I was raised with that imaginary terror. But after growing up and being able to think for myself, I came to the realization that IF Jesus really exists, Then he won't be an asshole like that. So take your stupid shit-mongering tripe somewhere else to spew. Damn, here I am again. Sir, how many people do you know of in those days that actually feared and spoke ugly of Jesus? Why don't people understand that the word fear/worship means to love, honor, respect? I know what you mean by people who constantly threaten with hell and such, but it shouldn't be a threat but a warning. That's what Jesus did, WARNED us. So have I now become your enemy for telling you the TRUTH? Galatians 4:16 *********************************** You call me paranoid. I call you uninformed. :tgdmwt: |
Starbug
User ID: 781716 United States 01/25/2010 01:03 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity. Quoting: TXGal4TruthThat is the main thing Jesus was nothing in his own generation even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him all written there was added late and is fake as all agree Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear. First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF". Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day. Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3 Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest. But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned. Well played TXGal4Truth! iStarbug So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, How amazingly unlikely is your birth, And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth. Monty Python - Galaxy Song |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 873458 United States 01/25/2010 01:03 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Sir.Kalin
(OP) User ID: 873438 United States 01/25/2010 01:05 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Damn, here I am again. Sir, how many people do you know of in those days that actually feared and spoke ugly of Jesus? Quoting: TXGal4TruthWhy don't people understand that the word fear/worship means to love, honor, respect? I know what you mean by people who constantly threaten with hell and such, but it shouldn't be a threat but a warning. That's what Jesus did, WARNED us. I understand your point of view, perhaps I was a bit too harsh. Alright I'll change it. Last Edited by Lord.Kayle on 01/25/2010 01:07 AM :LordKayleSig4: - "Your best investment is ammo, because it's going to weird quickly." - AC 1196210 - "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson's Personal Seal |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 873435 Israel 01/25/2010 01:06 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity. Quoting: StarbugThat is the main thing Jesus was nothing in his own generation even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him all written there was added late and is fake as all agree Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear. First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF". Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day. Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3 Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest. But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned. Well played TXGal4Truth! SHE SAID NOTHING BUT BS AGAIN READ THE TRUTH OF THIS MATTER All experts of this text know these "Jesus" passages to be latter additions to the text being out of context and character of the original work That this passage is a false fabrication is admitted by Ittigius, Blondel, Le Clerc, Vandale, Bishop Warburton, and Tanaquil Faber.'" (CMU, 47) Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, likely interpolated by Catholic Church historian Eusebius in the fourth century. So thorough and universal has been this debunking that very few scholars of repute continued to cite the passage after the turn of the 19th century. Indeed, the TF was rarely mentioned, except to note that it was a forgery, and numerous books by a variety of authorities over a period of 200 or so years basically took it for granted that the Testimonium Flavianum in its entirety was spurious, an interpolation and a forgery. As Dr. Gordon Stein relates: "...the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars." So well understood was this fact of forgery that these numerous authorities did not spend their precious time and space rehashing the arguments against the TF's authenticity. Nevertheless, in the past few decades apologists of questionable integrity and credibility have glommed onto the TF, because this short and dubious passage represents the most "concrete" secular, non-biblical reference to a man who purportedly shook up the world. In spite of the past debunking, the debate is currently confined to those who think the TF was original to Josephus but was Christianized, and those who credulously and self-servingly accept it as "genuine" in its entirety. To repeat, this passage was so completely dissected by scholars of high repute and standing--the majority of them pious Christians--that it was for decades understood by subsequent scholars as having been proved in toto a forgery, such that these succeeding scholars did not even mention it, unless to acknowledge it as false. (In addition to being repetitious, numerous quotes will be presented here, because a strong show of rational consensus is desperately needed when it comes to matters of blind, unscientific and irrational faith.) The scholars who so conclusively proved the TF a forgery made their mark at the end of the 18th century and into the 20th, when a sudden reversal was implemented, with popular opinion hemming and hawing its way back first to the "partial interpolation theory" and in recent times, among the third-rate apologists, to the notion that the whole TF is "genuine." As Earl Doherty says, in "Josephus Unbound": "Now, it is a curious fact that older generations of scholars had no trouble dismissing this entire passage as a Christian construction. Charles Guignebert, for example, in his Jesus (1956, p.17), calls it 'a pure Christian forgery.' Before him, Lardner, Harnack and Schurer, along with others, declared it entirely spurious. Today, most serious scholars have decided the passage is a mix: original parts rubbing shoulders with later Christian additions." The earlier scholarship that proved the entire TF to be fraudulent was determined by intense scrutiny by some of the most erudite, and mainly Christian, writers of the time, in a number of countries, their works written in a variety of languages, but particularly German, French and English. Their general conclusions, as elucidated by Christian authority Dr. Lardner, and related here by the author of Christian Mythology Unveiled (c. 1842), include the following reasons for doubting the authenticity of the TF as a whole:" a scholarly study of this travesty is found at this link [link to www.truthbeknown.com] Every one who is objective knows the "jesus" in Josephus is a latter addition thank God for these addition or this text like many other Jewish texts would have been destroyed by the church and lost for eternity It was only saved for the later "Jesus" additions If jesus was really what people want believe Josephus would have devoted more than a couple paragraphs to the subject ? Following is a list of important Christian authorities who studied and/or mentioned Josephus but not the Jesus passage: * Justin Martyr (c. 100-c. 165), who obviously pored over Josephus's works, makes no mention of the TF. * Theophilus (d. 180), Bishop of Antioch--no mention of the TF. * Irenaeus (c. 120/140-c. 200/203), saint and compiler of the New Testament, has not a word about the TF. * Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-211/215), influential Greek theologian and prolific Christian writer, head of the Alexandrian school, says nothing about the TF. * Origen (c. 185-c. 254), no mention of the TF and specifically states that Josephus did not believe Jesus was "the Christ." * Hippolytus (c. 170-c. 235), saint and martyr, nothing about the TF. * The author of the ancient Syriac text, "History of Armenia," refers to Josephus but not the TF. * Minucius Felix (d. c. 250), lawyer and Christian convert--no mention of the TF. * Anatolius (230-c. 270/280)--no mention of TF. * Chrysostom (c. 347-407), saint and Syrian prelate, not a word about the TF. * Methodius, saint of the 9th century--even at this late date there were apparently copies of Josephus without the TF, as Methodius makes no mention of it. * Photius (c. 820-891), Patriarch of Constantinople, not a word about the TF, again indicating copies of Josephus devoid of the passage, or, perhaps, a rejection of it because it was understood to be fraudulent. |
TXGal4Truth
User ID: 864252 United States 01/25/2010 01:10 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 873435That is the main thing Jesus was nothing in his own generation even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him all written there was added late and is fake as all agree Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear. First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF". Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day. Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3 Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest. But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned. Well played TXGal4Truth! SHE SAID NOTHING BUT BS AGAIN READ THE TRUTH OF THIS MATTER All experts of this text know these "Jesus" passages to be latter additions to the text being out of context and character of the original work That this passage is a false fabrication is admitted by Ittigius, Blondel, Le Clerc, Vandale, Bishop Warburton, and Tanaquil Faber.'" (CMU, 47) Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, likely interpolated by Catholic Church historian Eusebius in the fourth century. So thorough and universal has been this debunking that very few scholars of repute continued to cite the passage after the turn of the 19th century. Indeed, the TF was rarely mentioned, except to note that it was a forgery, and numerous books by a variety of authorities over a period of 200 or so years basically took it for granted that the Testimonium Flavianum in its entirety was spurious, an interpolation and a forgery. As Dr. Gordon Stein relates: "...the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars." So well understood was this fact of forgery that these numerous authorities did not spend their precious time and space rehashing the arguments against the TF's authenticity. Nevertheless, in the past few decades apologists of questionable integrity and credibility have glommed onto the TF, because this short and dubious passage represents the most "concrete" secular, non-biblical reference to a man who purportedly shook up the world. In spite of the past debunking, the debate is currently confined to those who think the TF was original to Josephus but was Christianized, and those who credulously and self-servingly accept it as "genuine" in its entirety. To repeat, this passage was so completely dissected by scholars of high repute and standing--the majority of them pious Christians--that it was for decades understood by subsequent scholars as having been proved in toto a forgery, such that these succeeding scholars did not even mention it, unless to acknowledge it as false. (In addition to being repetitious, numerous quotes will be presented here, because a strong show of rational consensus is desperately needed when it comes to matters of blind, unscientific and irrational faith.) The scholars who so conclusively proved the TF a forgery made their mark at the end of the 18th century and into the 20th, when a sudden reversal was implemented, with popular opinion hemming and hawing its way back first to the "partial interpolation theory" and in recent times, among the third-rate apologists, to the notion that the whole TF is "genuine." As Earl Doherty says, in "Josephus Unbound": "Now, it is a curious fact that older generations of scholars had no trouble dismissing this entire passage as a Christian construction. Charles Guignebert, for example, in his Jesus (1956, p.17), calls it 'a pure Christian forgery.' Before him, Lardner, Harnack and Schurer, along with others, declared it entirely spurious. Today, most serious scholars have decided the passage is a mix: original parts rubbing shoulders with later Christian additions." The earlier scholarship that proved the entire TF to be fraudulent was determined by intense scrutiny by some of the most erudite, and mainly Christian, writers of the time, in a number of countries, their works written in a variety of languages, but particularly German, French and English. Their general conclusions, as elucidated by Christian authority Dr. Lardner, and related here by the author of Christian Mythology Unveiled (c. 1842), include the following reasons for doubting the authenticity of the TF as a whole:" a scholarly study of this travesty is found at this link [link to www.truthbeknown.com] Every one who is objective knows the "jesus" in Josephus is a latter addition thank God for these addition or this text like many other Jewish texts would have been destroyed by the church and lost for eternity It was only saved for the later "Jesus" additions If jesus was really what people want believe Josephus would have devoted more than a couple paragraphs to the subject ? Following is a list of important Christian authorities who studied and/or mentioned Josephus but not the Jesus passage: * Justin Martyr (c. 100-c. 165), who obviously pored over Josephus's works, makes no mention of the TF. * Theophilus (d. 180), Bishop of Antioch--no mention of the TF. * Irenaeus (c. 120/140-c. 200/203), saint and compiler of the New Testament, has not a word about the TF. * Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-211/215), influential Greek theologian and prolific Christian writer, head of the Alexandrian school, says nothing about the TF. * Origen (c. 185-c. 254), no mention of the TF and specifically states that Josephus did not believe Jesus was "the Christ." * Hippolytus (c. 170-c. 235), saint and martyr, nothing about the TF. * The author of the ancient Syriac text, "History of Armenia," refers to Josephus but not the TF. * Minucius Felix (d. c. 250), lawyer and Christian convert--no mention of the TF. * Anatolius (230-c. 270/280)--no mention of TF. * Chrysostom (c. 347-407), saint and Syrian prelate, not a word about the TF. * Methodius, saint of the 9th century--even at this late date there were apparently copies of Josephus without the TF, as Methodius makes no mention of it. * Photius (c. 820-891), Patriarch of Constantinople, not a word about the TF, again indicating copies of Josephus devoid of the passage, or, perhaps, a rejection of it because it was understood to be fraudulent. Again, you are believing what was written by someone else no? Man. Just like you guys like to throw that the Bible was written by MAN. So, what's the freaking difference? So have I now become your enemy for telling you the TRUTH? Galatians 4:16 *********************************** You call me paranoid. I call you uninformed. :tgdmwt: |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 873435 Israel 01/25/2010 01:15 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | come on tex if joshphus knew about Jesus dont you think in his book he would write more than a couple short statements he spends pages and pages talking about nothing Dont have the book here right now but I think the last edition I had was close to 1000 pages not even a full page for Jesus He had no knowledge of him |