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Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal

 
Sir.Kalin
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Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
[link to freethoughtnation.com]

Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Sunday, 24 January 2010 16:31 Acharya S World News

"They speak of a Teacher of Righteousness and a pierced messiah, of cleansing through water and a battle of light against darkness.

"But anyone looking to the Dead Sea Scrolls in search of proof, say, that Jesus of Nazareth was the messiah presaged by the prophets, or that John the Baptist lived among the scroll's authors, will be disappointed."

News items are circulating about how "hints" and "insights" contained in the famous Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in caves near the ancient site of Qumran can be found in the Bible. In other words, certain ideas in the scrolls also appear in the New Testament, meaning, of course, that the impression of Christianity as a "divine revelation" appearing whole cloth miraculously from the very finger of God is clearly erroneous.

Few scholars today claim that any of the Dead Sea Scrolls ("DSS") date to the time after Christianity was allegedly founded by a "historical" Jesus in the first century of the common era. Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity.

In my book The Christ Conspiracy, I demonstrate that Christianity is an amalgam of the many religions, sects, cults and brotherhood traditions of the Mediterranean and beyond. One of the major influences on Christianity is that of Jews, obviously, including those mentioned in the New Testament, i.e., the Pharisees and Sadducees. Ancient Jewish historian Josephus also mentions the sect of the Essenes, who are traditionally associated with Qumran, in a "by default" argument. However, scholar Solomon Schecter - who discovered a scroll at Cairo that was later found at Qumran - points to a heretical sect of Sadducees or Zadokites, as they are called in both the Bible and DSS. In The Christ Conspiracy, I discuss this Zadokite origin of the DSS and this group's obvious influence on the New Testament.

What this rumination all means, of course, is that Christianity is, as I contend in my books, largely unoriginal, representing not fresh and new "divine revelation" but, again, the amalgamation of not only the ideas of the Zadokite authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls but also influences from the Essenes, Jews, Samaritans and many others.

Hints of the Scrolls in Bible

To understand how the Dead Sea Scrolls influenced early Christianity, just turn to the New Testament.

Take, for example, the Great Isaiah Scroll, a facsimile of which is on display as part of the Milwaukee Public Museum's Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit. Written around 125 B.C. and the only scroll to emerge virtually intact from the caves at Qumran, its messianic message is quoted in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, the earliest of which wasn't written until around A.D. 65.

The scrolls' so-called "Son of God" text reads much like the story of the Annunciation in the Gospel of Luke. And the Scrolls' "Blessing of the Wise" echoes the beatitudes of Matthew's Sermon on the Mount....

This early dating of the gospels, it should be noted, is based only on the a priori assumption that the story they relate is at least partially true in recounting a "historical" Jesus who truly walked the earth at the time he is claimed in the gospels themselves. There is no external evidence whatsoever for the existence of any canonical gospel at this early a date. In fact, the canonical gospels as we have them do not show up clearly in the historical record until the end of the second century.

Moreover, the Sermon on the Mount - supposedly the original monologue straight out of the mouth of the Son of God Himself - can be shown to be a series of Old Testament scriptures strung together, along with, apparently, such texts from Qumran. No "historical" founder was necessary at all to speak these words, as they are a rehash of extant sayings. (Even in this patent literary device the gospels cannot agree, as Luke 6:17-49 depicts the Sermon as having taken place on a plain.)

It is easy to see why the Catholic Church would blanche upon the discovery of these scrolls, as it could be - and has been - argued that these texts erode the very foundation of Christianity. It appears that this news, however, when released slowly has little affect on the mind-numbing programming that accompanies Christian faith.

The bottom line is that the existence of the Old Testament and the intertestamental literature such as the Dead Sea Scrolls shows how Christianity is a cut-and-paste job - a fact I also reveal in The Christ Conspiracy, in a chapter called "The Making of a Myth," which contains a discussion of some of the texts obviously used in the creation of the new faith. These influential texts evidently included some of the original Dead Sea Scrolls, serving not as "prophecy," "prefiguring" or "presaging" but as blueprints of pre-existing, older concepts cobbled together in the New Testament.
:LordKayleSig4:
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TARDIS

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Some official source...
Sir.Kalin  (OP)

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Some official source...
 Quoting: TARDIS


Official or not, just what is official?

The other does back up what he says.
:LordKayleSig4:
- "Your best investment is ammo, because it's going to weird quickly." - AC 1196210

- "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson's Personal Seal
TXGal4Truth

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
This was written by man? Must be false! :)
So have I now become your enemy for telling you the TRUTH? Galatians 4:16
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Bugeater

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Will your type never learn? The more you try to hide the truth the more you spark people's interest.

People instinctively know when information is being attacked constantly or efforts are made to hide it then it's probably the information you need to know.

Not sure what scares you so much about Jesus, unless....
Sir.Kalin  (OP)

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Will your type never learn? The more you try to hide the truth the more you spark people's interest.

People instinctively know when information is being attacked constantly or efforts are made to hide it then it's probably the information you need to know.

Not sure what scares you so much about Jesus, unless....
 Quoting: Bugeater


Why don't you read the article and base your comments on or towards that?

"As to the divinity of Jesus Christ, I feel I shall find the answer after I'm dead, and with much less turmoil." ~ Benjamin Franklin

Last Edited by Lord.Kayle on 01/25/2010 12:27 AM
:LordKayleSig4:
- "Your best investment is ammo, because it's going to weird quickly." - AC 1196210

- "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson's Personal Seal
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Some official source...
 Quoting: TARDIS

It's a change from his usual ewetube proof...
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity.

That is the main thing


Jesus was nothing in his own generation

even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him

all written there was added late and is fake as all agree
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity.

That is the main thing


Jesus was nothing in his own generation

even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him

all written there was added late and is fake as all agree
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 873435

You are either a liar or a deluded foo.
TXGal4Truth

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity.

That is the main thing


Jesus was nothing in his own generation

even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him

all written there was added late and is fake as all agree
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 873435


Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear.

First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF".

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest.

But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.
So have I now become your enemy for telling you the TRUTH? Galatians 4:16
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Art Deco

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
I've got no reason to disbelieve it.

After all, look how many high holy days have been adapted from other "pagan" dates.

If someone told me the stories in the bible were based on even earlier stories, I don't think it would my world crashing to the ground.

The thing that annoys me, is knowing the writings, both allowed and forbidden in the bible were for political, not religious reasons.
In ten years we'll look back on this moment, laugh nervously, and quickly change the subject.
TXGal4Truth

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I will say this LAST thing. It takes a lot of FAITH to believe in ANYTHING. What you choose to believe in is up to you.

Have fun with your thread Sir.
So have I now become your enemy for telling you the TRUTH? Galatians 4:16
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ac
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Yes the dead sea scrolls read somewhat like the New Testament because they were taken from the Old Testament which prophecied of the Coming of the Messiah.
What you read in the New Testament are these scriptures fulfilled.
The Essenes that had broken off from Israel became a separate sect than that of the Pharisees that ruled from Jerusalem. Unfortunately when the Lord Jesus Christ confronted them they determined that He must die so that they can continue to rule at the behest of the Roman Empire.
The Essenes were not a part of the Kingdom that the Lord Jesus Christ established, before or after, unless they converted from the cult they established according to their own written scrolls.
No, John was not apart of their organization. Remember, his father was a temple priest. No offshoot cults allowed there.
Bugeater

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Why don't you read the article and base your comments on or towards that?

"As to the divinity of Jesus Christ, I feel I shall find the answer after I'm dead, and with much less turmoil." ~ Benjamin Franklin
 Quoting: Sir.Kalin


I did and I did.

You don't understand that's on you.

Jesus was in the Old Testament too, maybe you missed him?
mathetes

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
In my book The Christ Conspiracy
 Quoting: Sir.Kalin

acharya s? Seriously? I thought you were at least an intelligent atheist. Why don't you just quote Graves or Freke & Gandy as well?

Dorothy M. Murdock aka as acharya s is a a pseudo scholar at best and btw you did know she tried to start her own religion at one time,with her of course as the high priestess

I debated acharya s several years ago on a radio show...after not being able to show any original sources for her claims,she simply told her followers to ignore me

Last Edited by mathetes on 01/25/2010 12:49 AM
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Can you imagine the terror
to spend your whole life opposing Jesus Christ
and then one day to die
and suddenly find yourself standing before Jesus Christ?
Sumo

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Will your type never learn? The more you try to hide the truth the more you spark people's interest.

People instinctively know when information is being attacked constantly or efforts are made to hide it then it's probably the information you need to know.

Not sure what scares you so much about Jesus, unless....
 Quoting: Bugeater

I'll tell what scares me about"jesus", people who worship him!
The Joke's Over.
Hunter S. Thompson
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 12:50 AM
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity.

That is the main thing


Jesus was nothing in his own generation

even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him

all written there was added late and is fake as all agree


Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear.

First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF".

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest.

But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.
 Quoting: TXGal4Truth



All experts of this text know these "Jesus" passages to be latter additions to the text being out of context and character of the original work

That this passage is a false fabrication is admitted by Ittigius, Blondel, Le Clerc, Vandale, Bishop Warburton, and Tanaquil Faber.'" (CMU, 47)



Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, likely interpolated by Catholic Church historian Eusebius in the fourth century. So thorough and universal has been this debunking that very few scholars of repute continued to cite the passage after the turn of the 19th century. Indeed, the TF was rarely mentioned, except to note that it was a forgery, and numerous books by a variety of authorities over a period of 200 or so years basically took it for granted that the Testimonium Flavianum in its entirety was spurious, an interpolation and a forgery. As Dr. Gordon Stein relates:

"...the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars."

So well understood was this fact of forgery that these numerous authorities did not spend their precious time and space rehashing the arguments against the TF's authenticity. Nevertheless, in the past few decades apologists of questionable integrity and credibility have glommed onto the TF, because this short and dubious passage represents the most "concrete" secular, non-biblical reference to a man who purportedly shook up the world. In spite of the past debunking, the debate is currently confined to those who think the TF was original to Josephus but was Christianized, and those who credulously and self-servingly accept it as "genuine" in its entirety.

To repeat, this passage was so completely dissected by scholars of high repute and standing--the majority of them pious Christians--that it was for decades understood by subsequent scholars as having been proved in toto a forgery, such that these succeeding scholars did not even mention it, unless to acknowledge it as false. (In addition to being repetitious, numerous quotes will be presented here, because a strong show of rational consensus is desperately needed when it comes to matters of blind, unscientific and irrational faith.) The scholars who so conclusively proved the TF a forgery made their mark at the end of the 18th century and into the 20th, when a sudden reversal was implemented, with popular opinion hemming and hawing its way back first to the "partial interpolation theory" and in recent times, among the third-rate apologists, to the notion that the whole TF is "genuine." As Earl Doherty says, in "Josephus Unbound":

"Now, it is a curious fact that older generations of scholars had no trouble dismissing this entire passage as a Christian construction. Charles Guignebert, for example, in his Jesus (1956, p.17), calls it 'a pure Christian forgery.' Before him, Lardner, Harnack and Schurer, along with others, declared it entirely spurious. Today, most serious scholars have decided the passage is a mix: original parts rubbing shoulders with later Christian additions."

The earlier scholarship that proved the entire TF to be fraudulent was determined by intense scrutiny by some of the most erudite, and mainly Christian, writers of the time, in a number of countries, their works written in a variety of languages, but particularly German, French and English. Their general conclusions, as elucidated by Christian authority Dr. Lardner, and related here by the author of Christian Mythology Unveiled (c. 1842), include the following reasons for doubting the authenticity of the TF as a whole:"

a scholarly study of this travesty is found at this link


[link to www.truthbeknown.com]


Every one who is objective knows the "jesus" in Josephus is a latter addition

thank God for these addition or this text like many other Jewish texts would have been destroyed by the church and lost for eternity

It was only saved for the later "Jesus" additions

If jesus was really what people want believe Josephus

would have devoted more than a couple paragraphs to the subject ?




Following is a list of important Christian authorities who studied and/or mentioned Josephus but not the Jesus passage:

*
Justin Martyr (c. 100-c. 165), who obviously pored over Josephus's works, makes no mention of the TF.
*
Theophilus (d. 180), Bishop of Antioch--no mention of the TF.
*
Irenaeus (c. 120/140-c. 200/203), saint and compiler of the New Testament, has not a word about the TF.
*
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-211/215), influential Greek theologian and prolific Christian writer, head of the Alexandrian school, says nothing about the TF.
* Origen (c. 185-c. 254), no mention of the TF and specifically states that Josephus did not believe Jesus was "the Christ."
* Hippolytus (c. 170-c. 235), saint and martyr, nothing about the TF.
* The author of the ancient Syriac text, "History of Armenia," refers to Josephus but not the TF.
* Minucius Felix (d. c. 250), lawyer and Christian convert--no mention of the TF.
* Anatolius (230-c. 270/280)--no mention of TF.
* Chrysostom (c. 347-407), saint and Syrian prelate, not a word about the TF.
* Methodius, saint of the 9th century--even at this late date there were apparently copies of Josephus without the TF, as Methodius makes no mention of it.
* Photius (c. 820-891), Patriarch of Constantinople, not a word about the TF, again indicating copies of Josephus devoid of the passage, or, perhaps, a rejection of it because it was understood to be fraudulent.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Joshephus was a wanna be
coolhandluke74

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Still hating and running from God i see...
mathetes

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Will your type never learn? The more you try to hide the truth the more you spark people's interest.

People instinctively know when information is being attacked constantly or efforts are made to hide it then it's probably the information you need to know.

Not sure what scares you so much about Jesus, unless....

I'll tell what scares me about"jesus", people who worship him!
 Quoting: Sumo

boo!


lol

All kidding aside that is the weakest excuse on record...its your immortal soul, don't let clichés & excuses such as "they're all hypocrites" deprive you of a happiness & joy that is indescribable
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Art Deco

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
I will say this LAST thing. It takes a lot of FAITH to believe in ANYTHING. What you choose to believe in is up to you.

 Quoting: TXGal4Truth


Amen!
(and no, I wasn't being sarcastic)
In ten years we'll look back on this moment, laugh nervously, and quickly change the subject.
Sir.Kalin  (OP)

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Can you imagine the terror
to spend your whole life opposing Jesus Christ
and then one day to die
and suddenly find yourself standing before Jesus Christ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 871825


Yes I was raised with that imaginary terror.

But after growing up and being able to think for myself,

I came to the realization that IF Jesus really exists,

Then he won't be an asshole like that.

So please don't worry about the eternal

state of my soul so much.

Thank you

Last Edited by Lord.Kayle on 01/25/2010 01:09 AM
:LordKayleSig4:
- "Your best investment is ammo, because it's going to weird quickly." - AC 1196210

- "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson's Personal Seal
Sir.Kalin  (OP)

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
I debated acharya s several years ago on a radio show...after not being able to show any original sources for her claims,she simply told her followers to ignore me
 Quoting: mathetes


I am not an atheist Mathetes.

I am a deist.

Go ahead and research it, here's a good site I recommend:
[link to www.deism.com]
:LordKayleSig4:
- "Your best investment is ammo, because it's going to weird quickly." - AC 1196210

- "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson's Personal Seal
TXGal4Truth

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Can you imagine the terror
to spend your whole life opposing Jesus Christ
and then one day to die
and suddenly find yourself standing before Jesus Christ?


Yes I was raised with that imaginary terror.

But after growing up and being able to think for myself,

I came to the realization that IF Jesus really exists,

Then he won't be an asshole like that.

So take your stupid shit-mongering tripe somewhere else to

spew.
 Quoting: Sir.Kalin


Damn, here I am again. Sir, how many people do you know of in those days that actually feared and spoke ugly of Jesus?

Why don't people understand that the word fear/worship means to love, honor, respect?

I know what you mean by people who constantly threaten with hell and such, but it shouldn't be a threat but a warning. That's what Jesus did, WARNED us.
So have I now become your enemy for telling you the TRUTH? Galatians 4:16
***********************************
You call me paranoid. I call you uninformed.

:tgdmwt:
Starbug

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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity.

That is the main thing


Jesus was nothing in his own generation

even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him

all written there was added late and is fake as all agree


Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear.

First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF".

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest.

But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.
 Quoting: TXGal4Truth


Well played TXGal4Truth! abduct
iStarbug

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

Monty Python - Galaxy Song
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 01:03 AM
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
The DSS 150 BC match the KJV OT 1611 perfect, confirming the text.
Sir.Kalin  (OP)

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01/25/2010 01:05 AM
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Damn, here I am again. Sir, how many people do you know of in those days that actually feared and spoke ugly of Jesus?

Why don't people understand that the word fear/worship means to love, honor, respect?

I know what you mean by people who constantly threaten with hell and such, but it shouldn't be a threat but a warning. That's what Jesus did, WARNED us.
 Quoting: TXGal4Truth


I understand your point of view, perhaps I was a bit too harsh.

Alright I'll change it.

Last Edited by Lord.Kayle on 01/25/2010 01:07 AM
:LordKayleSig4:
- "Your best investment is ammo, because it's going to weird quickly." - AC 1196210

- "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson's Personal Seal
Anonymous Coward
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01/25/2010 01:06 AM
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity.

That is the main thing


Jesus was nothing in his own generation

even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him

all written there was added late and is fake as all agree


Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear.

First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF".

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest.

But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.


Well played TXGal4Truth! abduct
 Quoting: Starbug


SHE SAID NOTHING BUT BS

AGAIN READ THE TRUTH OF THIS MATTER


All experts of this text know these "Jesus" passages to be latter additions to the text being out of context and character of the original work

That this passage is a false fabrication is admitted by Ittigius, Blondel, Le Clerc, Vandale, Bishop Warburton, and Tanaquil Faber.'" (CMU, 47)



Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, likely interpolated by Catholic Church historian Eusebius in the fourth century. So thorough and universal has been this debunking that very few scholars of repute continued to cite the passage after the turn of the 19th century. Indeed, the TF was rarely mentioned, except to note that it was a forgery, and numerous books by a variety of authorities over a period of 200 or so years basically took it for granted that the Testimonium Flavianum in its entirety was spurious, an interpolation and a forgery. As Dr. Gordon Stein relates:

"...the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars."

So well understood was this fact of forgery that these numerous authorities did not spend their precious time and space rehashing the arguments against the TF's authenticity. Nevertheless, in the past few decades apologists of questionable integrity and credibility have glommed onto the TF, because this short and dubious passage represents the most "concrete" secular, non-biblical reference to a man who purportedly shook up the world. In spite of the past debunking, the debate is currently confined to those who think the TF was original to Josephus but was Christianized, and those who credulously and self-servingly accept it as "genuine" in its entirety.

To repeat, this passage was so completely dissected by scholars of high repute and standing--the majority of them pious Christians--that it was for decades understood by subsequent scholars as having been proved in toto a forgery, such that these succeeding scholars did not even mention it, unless to acknowledge it as false. (In addition to being repetitious, numerous quotes will be presented here, because a strong show of rational consensus is desperately needed when it comes to matters of blind, unscientific and irrational faith.) The scholars who so conclusively proved the TF a forgery made their mark at the end of the 18th century and into the 20th, when a sudden reversal was implemented, with popular opinion hemming and hawing its way back first to the "partial interpolation theory" and in recent times, among the third-rate apologists, to the notion that the whole TF is "genuine." As Earl Doherty says, in "Josephus Unbound":

"Now, it is a curious fact that older generations of scholars had no trouble dismissing this entire passage as a Christian construction. Charles Guignebert, for example, in his Jesus (1956, p.17), calls it 'a pure Christian forgery.' Before him, Lardner, Harnack and Schurer, along with others, declared it entirely spurious. Today, most serious scholars have decided the passage is a mix: original parts rubbing shoulders with later Christian additions."

The earlier scholarship that proved the entire TF to be fraudulent was determined by intense scrutiny by some of the most erudite, and mainly Christian, writers of the time, in a number of countries, their works written in a variety of languages, but particularly German, French and English. Their general conclusions, as elucidated by Christian authority Dr. Lardner, and related here by the author of Christian Mythology Unveiled (c. 1842), include the following reasons for doubting the authenticity of the TF as a whole:"

a scholarly study of this travesty is found at this link


[link to www.truthbeknown.com]


Every one who is objective knows the "jesus" in Josephus is a latter addition

thank God for these addition or this text like many other Jewish texts would have been destroyed by the church and lost for eternity

It was only saved for the later "Jesus" additions

If jesus was really what people want believe Josephus

would have devoted more than a couple paragraphs to the subject ?



Following is a list of important Christian authorities who studied and/or mentioned Josephus but not the Jesus passage:

*
Justin Martyr (c. 100-c. 165), who obviously pored over Josephus's works, makes no mention of the TF.
*
Theophilus (d. 180), Bishop of Antioch--no mention of the TF.
*
Irenaeus (c. 120/140-c. 200/203), saint and compiler of the New Testament, has not a word about the TF.
*
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-211/215), influential Greek theologian and prolific Christian writer, head of the Alexandrian school, says nothing about the TF.
* Origen (c. 185-c. 254), no mention of the TF and specifically states that Josephus did not believe Jesus was "the Christ."
* Hippolytus (c. 170-c. 235), saint and martyr, nothing about the TF.
* The author of the ancient Syriac text, "History of Armenia," refers to Josephus but not the TF.
* Minucius Felix (d. c. 250), lawyer and Christian convert--no mention of the TF.
* Anatolius (230-c. 270/280)--no mention of TF.
* Chrysostom (c. 347-407), saint and Syrian prelate, not a word about the TF.
* Methodius, saint of the 9th century--even at this late date there were apparently copies of Josephus without the TF, as Methodius makes no mention of it.
* Photius (c. 820-891), Patriarch of Constantinople, not a word about the TF, again indicating copies of Josephus devoid of the passage, or, perhaps, a rejection of it because it was understood to be fraudulent.
TXGal4Truth

User ID: 864252
United States
01/25/2010 01:10 AM
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity.

That is the main thing


Jesus was nothing in his own generation

even the Historian who lived in that period Josephus said nothing about him

all written there was added late and is fake as all agree


Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear.

First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF".

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest.

But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.


Well played TXGal4Truth! abduct


SHE SAID NOTHING BUT BS

AGAIN READ THE TRUTH OF THIS MATTER


All experts of this text know these "Jesus" passages to be latter additions to the text being out of context and character of the original work

That this passage is a false fabrication is admitted by Ittigius, Blondel, Le Clerc, Vandale, Bishop Warburton, and Tanaquil Faber.'" (CMU, 47)



Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, likely interpolated by Catholic Church historian Eusebius in the fourth century. So thorough and universal has been this debunking that very few scholars of repute continued to cite the passage after the turn of the 19th century. Indeed, the TF was rarely mentioned, except to note that it was a forgery, and numerous books by a variety of authorities over a period of 200 or so years basically took it for granted that the Testimonium Flavianum in its entirety was spurious, an interpolation and a forgery. As Dr. Gordon Stein relates:

"...the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars."

So well understood was this fact of forgery that these numerous authorities did not spend their precious time and space rehashing the arguments against the TF's authenticity. Nevertheless, in the past few decades apologists of questionable integrity and credibility have glommed onto the TF, because this short and dubious passage represents the most "concrete" secular, non-biblical reference to a man who purportedly shook up the world. In spite of the past debunking, the debate is currently confined to those who think the TF was original to Josephus but was Christianized, and those who credulously and self-servingly accept it as "genuine" in its entirety.

To repeat, this passage was so completely dissected by scholars of high repute and standing--the majority of them pious Christians--that it was for decades understood by subsequent scholars as having been proved in toto a forgery, such that these succeeding scholars did not even mention it, unless to acknowledge it as false. (In addition to being repetitious, numerous quotes will be presented here, because a strong show of rational consensus is desperately needed when it comes to matters of blind, unscientific and irrational faith.) The scholars who so conclusively proved the TF a forgery made their mark at the end of the 18th century and into the 20th, when a sudden reversal was implemented, with popular opinion hemming and hawing its way back first to the "partial interpolation theory" and in recent times, among the third-rate apologists, to the notion that the whole TF is "genuine." As Earl Doherty says, in "Josephus Unbound":

"Now, it is a curious fact that older generations of scholars had no trouble dismissing this entire passage as a Christian construction. Charles Guignebert, for example, in his Jesus (1956, p.17), calls it 'a pure Christian forgery.' Before him, Lardner, Harnack and Schurer, along with others, declared it entirely spurious. Today, most serious scholars have decided the passage is a mix: original parts rubbing shoulders with later Christian additions."

The earlier scholarship that proved the entire TF to be fraudulent was determined by intense scrutiny by some of the most erudite, and mainly Christian, writers of the time, in a number of countries, their works written in a variety of languages, but particularly German, French and English. Their general conclusions, as elucidated by Christian authority Dr. Lardner, and related here by the author of Christian Mythology Unveiled (c. 1842), include the following reasons for doubting the authenticity of the TF as a whole:"

a scholarly study of this travesty is found at this link


[link to www.truthbeknown.com]


Every one who is objective knows the "jesus" in Josephus is a latter addition

thank God for these addition or this text like many other Jewish texts would have been destroyed by the church and lost for eternity

It was only saved for the later "Jesus" additions

If jesus was really what people want believe Josephus

would have devoted more than a couple paragraphs to the subject ?



Following is a list of important Christian authorities who studied and/or mentioned Josephus but not the Jesus passage:

*
Justin Martyr (c. 100-c. 165), who obviously pored over Josephus's works, makes no mention of the TF.
*
Theophilus (d. 180), Bishop of Antioch--no mention of the TF.
*
Irenaeus (c. 120/140-c. 200/203), saint and compiler of the New Testament, has not a word about the TF.
*
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-211/215), influential Greek theologian and prolific Christian writer, head of the Alexandrian school, says nothing about the TF.
* Origen (c. 185-c. 254), no mention of the TF and specifically states that Josephus did not believe Jesus was "the Christ."
* Hippolytus (c. 170-c. 235), saint and martyr, nothing about the TF.
* The author of the ancient Syriac text, "History of Armenia," refers to Josephus but not the TF.
* Minucius Felix (d. c. 250), lawyer and Christian convert--no mention of the TF.
* Anatolius (230-c. 270/280)--no mention of TF.
* Chrysostom (c. 347-407), saint and Syrian prelate, not a word about the TF.
* Methodius, saint of the 9th century--even at this late date there were apparently copies of Josephus without the TF, as Methodius makes no mention of it.
* Photius (c. 820-891), Patriarch of Constantinople, not a word about the TF, again indicating copies of Josephus devoid of the passage, or, perhaps, a rejection of it because it was understood to be fraudulent.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 873435


Again, you are believing what was written by someone else no? Man. Just like you guys like to throw that the Bible was written by MAN. So, what's the freaking difference?
So have I now become your enemy for telling you the TRUTH? Galatians 4:16
***********************************
You call me paranoid. I call you uninformed.

:tgdmwt:
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 873435
Israel
01/25/2010 01:15 AM
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Re: Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal
come on tex

if joshphus knew about Jesus

dont you think in his book he would write more than a couple

short statements


he spends pages and pages talking about nothing


Dont have the book here right now

but I think the last edition I had was close to 1000 pages

not even a full page for Jesus


He had no knowledge of him





GLP