Warning on US muni market threat | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 743646 United States 12/02/2009 12:51 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 811560 United States 12/02/2009 12:55 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Bob Chapman, right again! "The Fed also expects a meltdown in the bond market, especially in municipals. Public services will be cut drastically leading to increased crime and social problems,.." [link to www.marketoracle.co.uk] |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 811285 Mexico 12/02/2009 12:56 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 550635 United States 12/02/2009 01:28 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Tere can't be any more bailouts. Wont work. Its collapse time and this is mostly the government collapsing. THE PEOPLE WILL DO FINE. Don't let govt. make you think otherwise. Have courage, we can live without our $5 trillion dollar per year government. All we need is a president, VP, secretary of defense, one (1) represenative per state, one governor per state, armed forces (at home) and thats it. Everything else will come AS WE EARN IT. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 755805 United States 12/02/2009 02:08 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Tere can't be any more bailouts. Wont work. Its collapse time and this is mostly the government collapsing. THE PEOPLE WILL DO FINE. Don't let govt. make you think otherwise. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 550635Have courage, we can live without our $5 trillion dollar per year government. All we need is a president, VP, secretary of defense, one (1) represenative per state, one governor per state, armed forces (at home) and thats it. Everything else will come AS WE EARN IT. |
anonymous User ID: 831673 United States 12/02/2009 02:22 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 811285 Mexico 12/02/2009 02:32 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Tere can't be any more bailouts. Wont work. Its collapse time and this is mostly the government collapsing. THE PEOPLE WILL DO FINE. Don't let govt. make you think otherwise. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 550635Have courage, we can live without our $5 trillion dollar per year government. All we need is a president, VP, secretary of defense, one (1) representative per state, one governor per state, armed forces (at home) and that's it. Everything else will come AS WE EARN IT. New States of America is Socialist and they need more 5 trillion to spend , prepare for Bail out part 2 : Banks, Munis and States debts , Car markers, Afghanistan, you name it . Housing burst has not finished yet !! |
Nick the Greek User ID: 831680 Australia 12/02/2009 02:42 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Evil Twin
12/02/2009 02:50 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 799724 United States 12/02/2009 03:37 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Tere can't be any more bailouts. Wont work. Its collapse time and this is mostly the government collapsing. THE PEOPLE WILL DO FINE. Don't let govt. make you think otherwise. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 550635Have courage, we can live without our $5 trillion dollar per year government. All we need is a president, VP, secretary of defense, one (1) represenative per state, one governor per state, armed forces (at home) and thats it. Everything else will come AS WE EARN IT. Hell yeah corporate america will just have to bribe 103 people instead of the thousands they do now. Good thinking. |
9teen.47™
User ID: 831775 United Kingdom 12/02/2009 04:06 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Oh Dear! It seems like all those people who thought that they could retire after 25 or 30 years and live high on the hog, have got another think coming. Now they will just have to join the rest of us. Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God. Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate [woman]. STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobacco is worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 359772 United States 12/02/2009 04:37 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
a passing cloud
User ID: 616505 United States 12/02/2009 06:48 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | could someone elaborate on what the exact procedure for "hyperinflating" is? is it a specific amount of money that they will authorize the printing of, is it doing what we've BEEN doing, but for longer? is it something else entirely? i understand hyperinflation as a result, but need a better idea of its use as a strategy. why did i send myself to this world?? there must have been a reason. |
LouisWinthorpeIII
User ID: 831561 United States 12/02/2009 07:49 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | could someone elaborate on what the exact procedure for "hyperinflating" is? Quoting: a passing cloudis it a specific amount of money that they will authorize the printing of, is it doing what we've BEEN doing, but for longer? is it something else entirely? i understand hyperinflation as a result, but need a better idea of its use as a strategy. In the old days they printed money and that was the 'supply'. Now debt is how we create money. Have you seen any insane loaning going on in the last 5 years? "I don't know which was scarier...the speech...or the Congress cheering it. He evoked Lincoln. Whenever a President is going to get us into serious trouble...they always use Lincoln." -2010 |
Enlilson
User ID: 831891 United States 12/02/2009 08:29 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | One of the more interesting subplots is what Warren Buffet was doing and to whom he did it too. Last Edited by Enlilson on 12/02/2009 08:30 AM It doesn't matter who I m it's who U R so ChoOse |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 831885 United States 12/02/2009 08:30 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Bob Chapman, right again! Quoting: Anonymous Coward 811560"The Fed also expects a meltdown in the bond market, especially in municipals. Public services will be cut drastically leading to increased crime and social problems,.." [link to www.marketoracle.co.uk] Yep, Bob Chapman broke the news on munis 11/27! |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 368888 United States 12/02/2009 08:39 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | could someone elaborate on what the exact procedure for "hyperinflating" is? Quoting: a passing cloudis it a specific amount of money that they will authorize the printing of, is it doing what we've BEEN doing, but for longer? is it something else entirely? i understand hyperinflation as a result, but need a better idea of its use as a strategy. Once other gov'ts stop taking our dollars to buy oil or other things we need in USA, we will have major problem. That will cause hyperinflation. As a strategy, some have said that the system needs to collapse in order for us to wipe the debt slate clean. We pay off the debt in dollars that no one wants. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 831561 United States 12/02/2009 08:49 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 829866 United States 12/02/2009 09:03 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Tere can't be any more bailouts. Wont work. Its collapse time and this is mostly the government collapsing. THE PEOPLE WILL DO FINE. Don't let govt. make you think otherwise. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 550635Have courage, we can live without our $5 trillion dollar per year government. All we need is a president, VP, secretary of defense, one (1) represenative per state, one governor per state, armed forces (at home) and thats it. Everything else will come AS WE EARN IT. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 831561 United States 12/02/2009 09:29 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Bob Chapman, right again! Quoting: Anonymous Coward 811560"The Fed also expects a meltdown in the bond market, especially in municipals. Public services will be cut drastically leading to increased crime and social problems,.." [link to www.marketoracle.co.uk] Wow! I read the article at your link, and it desereves a thread all it's own!!!!!!!! |
Enlilson
User ID: 831891 United States 12/02/2009 09:32 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | In January of 2008 I put up several threads about this issue this is from the last one. Dec. 20 (Bloomberg) -- MBIA Inc. fell the most since 1987 in New York trading after the world's biggest bond insurer disclosed that it guarantees $8.1 billion of collateralized debt obligations that investors say have a greater chance of losses. ``We are shocked management withheld this information for as long as it did,'' Ken Zerbe, an analyst with Morgan Stanley in New York, wrote in a report yesterday. ``MBIA simply did not disclose arguably the riskiest parts of its CDO portfolio to investors.'' What does this mean. In the case of Ambac Fitch, Moody's and Standard & Poor's are downgrading them and they are the main isurier of Municipl Bonds. There is the Market's problem, Funds that must hold a percentage of AAA bonds in their profolio would be forced to sell them. YEP a dumping of bonds will start happening. "Bob Smith, president and CIO of Sage Advisory in Austin, Texas, cautions that even general obligation bonds are not as straightforward as they used to be. Investors, he says, are overconfident in the companies that offer municipal bond guarantees. Over half of all municipal bonds are now backed by financial guarantees that confer AAA ratings, even when the cities, states or agencies that issue them are rated below AAA. “What many people don't realize is that they are private companies, not government agencies that are mandated to work in the public interest,” Smith says. If the guarantors become unstable, the prices of the bonds they guarantee could collapse. Such an event would catch retail investors and many brokers alike by surprise. There are four companies that dominate the financial guarantee market. They are MBIA (NYSE: MBI), Ambac Financial Group (NYSE: ABK), Finance Security Assurance (NYSE: FSA) and Financial Guaranty Insurance (a unit of GE Capital)" [link to registeredrep.com] So what else happens. The banks holding these bonds are going to have to go in and re evaluated their holdings which will further undermine the banking industry. HELLO your Muni Bonds are how your cities, your government raises money and the cost of raising that money just went up. If any of their bonds are coming due they are going to have to pay them out and then seek additional capital or face a liquidy crisis. Last Edited by Enlilson on 12/02/2009 09:50 AM It doesn't matter who I m it's who U R so ChoOse |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 827946 United States 12/02/2009 09:37 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Bob Chapman, right again! Quoting: Anonymous Coward 811560"The Fed also expects a meltdown in the bond market, especially in municipals. Public services will be cut drastically leading to increased crime and social problems,.." [link to www.marketoracle.co.uk] |
Enlilson
User ID: 831891 United States 12/02/2009 09:39 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | It's not just the munibonds themselves the companies monolines that insure them have been insolvent since 2008 Executives will comment on the ratings review and the company's plans to raise more capital on a conference call scheduled for Jan. 22 at 10 a.m., Ambac said. Losing the AAA stamp would cripple the bond insurers' business and throw doubt on the ratings of $2.4 trillion of debt the industry guarantees, causing as much as $200 billion in losses, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. ............ [link to www.bloomberg.com] Note the date and notice that the few have put this together and it has been happening since 2008. To see a recap of this debacle click here. Thread: US Government has to announce backing of muni insurers or DOOM will unfold. (Page 2) Last Edited by Enlilson on 12/02/2009 09:50 AM It doesn't matter who I m it's who U R so ChoOse |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 831962 United States 12/02/2009 10:58 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Tere can't be any more bailouts. Wont work. Its collapse time and this is mostly the government collapsing. THE PEOPLE WILL DO FINE. Don't let govt. make you think otherwise. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 550635Have courage, we can live without our $5 trillion dollar per year government. All we need is a president, VP, secretary of defense, one (1) represenative per state, one governor per state, armed forces (at home) and thats it. Everything else will come AS WE EARN IT. One (1) king will suffice. |
ac User ID: 137597 United States 12/02/2009 12:03 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | In January of 2008 I put up several threads about this issue this is from the last one. Quoting: EnlilsonDec. 20 (Bloomberg) -- MBIA Inc. fell the most since 1987 in New York trading after the world's biggest bond insurer disclosed that it guarantees $8.1 billion of collateralized debt obligations that investors say have a greater chance of losses. ``We are shocked management withheld this information for as long as it did,'' Ken Zerbe, an analyst with Morgan Stanley in New York, wrote in a report yesterday. ``MBIA simply did not disclose arguably the riskiest parts of its CDO portfolio to investors.'' What does this mean. In the case of Ambac Fitch, Moody's and Standard & Poor's are downgrading them and they are the main isurier of Municipl Bonds. There is the Market's problem, Funds that must hold a percentage of AAA bonds in their profolio would be forced to sell them. YEP a dumping of bonds will start happening. "Bob Smith, president and CIO of Sage Advisory in Austin, Texas, cautions that even general obligation bonds are not as straightforward as they used to be. Investors, he says, are overconfident in the companies that offer municipal bond guarantees. Over half of all municipal bonds are now backed by financial guarantees that confer AAA ratings, even when the cities, states or agencies that issue them are rated below AAA. “What many people don't realize is that they are private companies, not government agencies that are mandated to work in the public interest,” Smith says. If the guarantors become unstable, the prices of the bonds they guarantee could collapse. Such an event would catch retail investors and many brokers alike by surprise. There are four companies that dominate the financial guarantee market. They are MBIA (NYSE: MBI), Ambac Financial Group (NYSE: ABK), Finance Security Assurance (NYSE: FSA) and Financial Guaranty Insurance (a unit of GE Capital)" [link to registeredrep.com] So what else happens. The banks holding these bonds are going to have to go in and re evaluated their holdings which will further undermine the banking industry. HELLO your Muni Bonds are how your cities, your government raises money and the cost of raising that money just went up. If any of their bonds are coming due they are going to have to pay them out and then seek additional capital or face a liquidy crisis. During GD 1.0, the wealthy, or at least the seemingly smart ones, were able to save the family fortune by investing specifically in Muni Bonds. They have always been viewed as safe and boring, with no municipality ever having gone broke. The principal and interest were always paid, just like clockwork. It is a different matter altogether today. Cities, counties; the entire foodchain was dependent upon ever-rising property values, which increased taxing ability. Remember the mantra: property values can NEVER go down! Well,property does go down in value, especially after you have given loans to people who had no ability to pay it back. We are going to see a reset on public employment the likes of which we have never experienced. Several states are literally bankrupt, at least technically. This financial crisis is far from over. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 822421 United States 12/02/2009 12:11 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Oh Dear! It seems like all those people who thought that they could retire after 25 or 30 years and live high on the hog, have got another think coming. Now they will just have to join the rest of us. Quoting: 9teen.47™I'm sorry 1947, but many of those union workers busted their arse. I know my dad did, and it nearly killed him on more than 1 occasion. He drove semi for 31 years. The times I can recall, off the top of my head, where he almost lost his life are (1) Roll up door on the trailer was defective, and as he climbed up into the trailer (to unload), the door came crashing down right on his skull, knocking him out and gashing his head open, blood everywhere...yeah, for over 20 years, he unloaded his own trailers, and for most of those years, he unloaded with a dolly, as fork lifts were in short supplies and used in warehousing. (2) He delivered a load of chemicals to a 3M plant, and the dock supervisor told him he had to unload a few of the boxes into a storage room, which he did. As he entered that storage room, there was a liquid spill, no one had cleaned up, and no one had even marked the liquid as hazardous. Well, whatever it was, caused my dad to fall severely ill, lost ALL his hair (ALL OVER his body), which has never grown back. When OSHA investigated, they said that he's lucky he received minimal exposure, as he could have lost more than just body hair. (3) Another roll up door on the trailer he was assigned was defective, and again, just as he was climbing in, he was smacked right on the top of the head. (4) He has driven truck in many tornadoes...he was stuck once on I-35, with nowhere to go, and the tornado came along and the wind picked up his rig and moved it about 15', towards the ditch, as it sit there rocking as it was tilted. He couldn't correct the truck, because the wheels were unable to connect with the ground. And daily, he worked 12-16 hours, 5 days a week. At his highest paygrade, he made $16.00/hour, but that wasn't until his final years. There are many like him, who have worked hard, long, and without the peoples awareness of what they endure. Truck drivers are usually looked at with suspicion, and thought of as brainless workhorses. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 320717 United States 12/02/2009 12:14 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Oh Dear! It seems like all those people who thought that they could retire after 25 or 30 years and live high on the hog, have got another think coming. Now they will just have to join the rest of us. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 822421I'm sorry 1947, but many of those union workers busted their arse. I know my dad did, and it nearly killed him on more than 1 occasion. He drove semi for 31 years. The times I can recall, off the top of my head, where he almost lost his life are (1) Roll up door on the trailer was defective, and as he climbed up into the trailer (to unload), the door came crashing down right on his skull, knocking him out and gashing his head open, blood everywhere...yeah, for over 20 years, he unloaded his own trailers, and for most of those years, he unloaded with a dolly, as fork lifts were in short supplies and used in warehousing. (2) He delivered a load of chemicals to a 3M plant, and the dock supervisor told him he had to unload a few of the boxes into a storage room, which he did. As he entered that storage room, there was a liquid spill, no one had cleaned up, and no one had even marked the liquid as hazardous. Well, whatever it was, caused my dad to fall severely ill, lost ALL his hair (ALL OVER his body), which has never grown back. When OSHA investigated, they said that he's lucky he received minimal exposure, as he could have lost more than just body hair. (3) Another roll up door on the trailer he was assigned was defective, and again, just as he was climbing in, he was smacked right on the top of the head. (4) He has driven truck in many tornadoes...he was stuck once on I-35, with nowhere to go, and the tornado came along and the wind picked up his rig and moved it about 15', towards the ditch, as it sit there rocking as it was tilted. He couldn't correct the truck, because the wheels were unable to connect with the ground. And daily, he worked 12-16 hours, 5 days a week. At his highest paygrade, he made $16.00/hour, but that wasn't until his final years. There are many like him, who have worked hard, long, and without the peoples awareness of what they endure. Truck drivers are usually looked at with suspicion, and thought of as brainless workhorses. Your dad is a hero. |
Phase-Sphere
User ID: 749797 United States 12/02/2009 12:15 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Hard to rebuild a mountain once you've undermined it. Perseverance until the third wave is imperative now!! STAND!!! Later........ Last Edited by Phase-Sphere on 12/02/2009 12:16 PM |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 822421 United States 12/02/2009 12:24 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | There are many like him, who have worked hard, long, and without the peoples awareness of what they endure. Truck drivers are usually looked at with suspicion, and thought of as brainless workhorses. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 320717Your dad is a hero. To me he certainly is. He supported a family with his labor of love...and he made certain that store shelves were full for consumers. He delivered everything from bare materials for manufacturing, to steel for building, to food for eating. He worked long and hard, and was lucky if 1 out of every 10 deliveries there was a "lumper" to unload his truck, which he paid him right out of his own pocket, as the "lumper" also had a family to feed. My dad never believed in hand outs, but was certainly for a hand up. He might not have been the smartest cookie in the box, but he was smart enough to know that had work equals personal gratification and survivability. Thank you |
9teen.47™
User ID: 832009 United Kingdom 12/02/2009 01:37 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I'm sorry 1947, but many of those union workers busted their arse. I know my dad did, and it nearly killed him on more than 1 occasion. He drove semi for 31 years. The times I can recall, off the top of my head, where he almost lost his life are (1) Roll up door on the trailer was defective, and as he climbed up into the trailer (to unload), the door came crashing down right on his skull, knocking him out and gashing his head open, blood everywhere...yeah, for over 20 years, he unloaded his own trailers, and for most of those years, he unloaded with a dolly, as fork lifts were in short supplies and used in warehousing. (2) He delivered a load of chemicals to a 3M plant, and the dock supervisor told him he had to unload a few of the boxes into a storage room, which he did. As he entered that storage room, there was a liquid spill, no one had cleaned up, and no one had even marked the liquid as hazardous. Well, whatever it was, caused my dad to fall severely ill, lost ALL his hair (ALL OVER his body), which has never grown back. When OSHA investigated, they said that he's lucky he received minimal exposure, as he could have lost more than just body hair. (3) Another roll up door on the trailer he was assigned was defective, and again, just as he was climbing in, he was smacked right on the top of the head. (4) He has driven truck in many tornadoes...he was stuck once on I-35, with nowhere to go, and the tornado came along and the wind picked up his rig and moved it about 15', towards the ditch, as it sit there rocking as it was tilted. He couldn't correct the truck, because the wheels were unable to connect with the ground. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 822421And daily, he worked 12-16 hours, 5 days a week. At his highest paygrade, he made $16.00/hour, but that wasn't until his final years. There are many like him, who have worked hard, long, and without the peoples awareness of what they endure. Truck drivers are usually looked at with suspicion, and thought of as brainless workhorses. Wake up 822421. The fact is that apart from office workers and a few others, nearly all people in employment run risks of injury every day. Speaking personally I'm glad that things where not worse for him, but I have had a few close scrapes myself. And most people do not have anything like the health benefits he had if something goes badly wrong. It is obvious that he made a great deal from overtime. Many people would like that, but for me, and I suspect many others, overtime was a rare treat. I basically had to make do on regular pay. Granted I could have taken a second job, but it's not just a case of having money, you also need a bit of time to enjoy it. As for complaining about $16 an hour! When I was last in California cement truck drivers where on about $9 an hour. The fact is that money is tight. Most people are on under $10 an hour and they resent having to pay for other peoples high pensions. We live in a harder new world, so you will have to get used to it. I'd like to modify my comments to make it clear that I am not knocking the regular muni fireman, cop, trash collector and so on. I actually had in mind the back office schemers, union hacks, lawyers, consultants and others who have battened onto the gravy train. But the fact is that the rest off us are by and large having a hard time of it. On top of which there are the State and Federal gravy trains. And a lot of other peoples 401k plans have taken big hits recently. I'm afraid that the party is over... for all of us. Last Edited by 9teen.47™ on 12/02/2009 02:28 PM Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God. Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate [woman]. STOCK UP NOW. You should have at least 6 months worth of basics for every member of your household. Stay away from crowds when trouble starts, do not forget water storage, tobacco is worth more than gold or silver, and be kind to hungry children. |