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PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER

 
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 01:09 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
TPTB are scared shitless of the BNP, instead of giving them airtime and debating them they demonise and censor them.


TPTB are not that stupid, i think something more sinister is afoot, there is a rise in right wing parties in europe again.

Im starting to think TPTB want race riots in the streets etc, i have not worked out why yet.

I am scared for my hard working black and asian friends.


Well whatever the reason I don't see what these IDIOT are protesting about, we live in a DEMOCRACY they have as much right to be heard as any other party, if their policies are so terrible they won't be voted in - simple.


but thats the point of a democracy - they have the RIGHT to protest this man!


They're not just protesting though they're trying to censor him, which is anti-democracy and anti-freedom of speech.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 548111

bump
Anonymous Coward
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
Weres the brown shirts when you need them, they should start bashing some of them leftist heads!
~•:*Winnie*:•~  (OP)

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10/22/2009 01:10 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
The very same freedom of speech that is allowing them to protest in the first place.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 548111


yes i agree. i do support freedom of speech and the right to protest. however, i dont support at all the BNP and i think Nick Griff is an arse.
happy now?
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 01:11 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
The British National Party and “Question Time”


By Julie Hyland
22 October 2009



Media lawyers this week rejected a warning by Welsh Secretary Peter Hain that the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) could face legal action if it allowed Nick Griffin, leader of the British National Party, to appear on its flagship “Question Time” programme, scheduled for this evening.



Hain had argued that the far-right party was effectively “illegal,” after the Equality and Human Rights Commission began county court proceedings against it on the grounds that its “whites only” membership policy breached race relations laws. The action was halted after Griffin agreed to put a revised constitution to the party next month and suspended recruitment in the interim period.

Hain’s threat was the latest in a near hysterical campaign by a section of the Labour Party, including potential leadership challenger Alan Johnson, the Guardian newspaper and pseudo-left groups such as the Socialist Workers Party, to denounce Griffin’s appearance.


With plans for a demonstration outside the BBC HQ by Unite Against Fascism (UAF)—an umbrella organisation of Labourites, the Trades Union Congress and the SWP, that is also supported by the Conservatives and others—there has been talk for weeks of the programme being filmed in a “secret location” guarded by a heavy police presence.

That many workers and young people find Griffin and his organisation’s politics of race hatred repugnant is entirely healthy. But this politically inexperienced opposition is being directed towards demands for state and media sanctions against the BNP for not following “legitimate democratic” norms and used to sanctify the official establishment parties as the rightful representatives of public opinion.

The Socialist Worker, which heads the UAF, claims that the BBC’s invite “flies in the face of its responsibilities as a public service broadcaster.”

This is a whitewash of the BBC, the official mouthpiece of British imperialism in whose “service” alone it propagandises day in and day out.
It also lends credence to the broadcaster’s argument that as a “public service broadcaster” it is obliged to feature Griffin. As the BNP won two seats in June’s elections to the European Parliament and has some 50 local councillors in the UK, the BBC cannot “apply different standards to different parties because of their particular policies,” the broadcaster has stated.

In reality, the BNP leader’s participation on “Question Time” is only the latest in many appearances he has made on the BBC, especially over the last year, and he is regularly interviewed on all the major news channels.


Griffin’s rise to public prominence has little to do with democratic “inclusion” and everything to do with a pronounced shift to the right amongst the entire political establishment, including its supposedly “liberal” representatives.


They regard the BNP as a useful tool for inculcating anti-immigrant prejudice in order to divert the rising social anger generated by the economic crisis away from its real target—the parasitic financial oligarchy and its political representatives that have plundered the social assets and living standards of working people for their own self-enrichment.


In March 2008, for example, the BBC commissioned a so-called “White Season” of programming. Under the heading, “Is white working-class Britain becoming invisible?” its aim was to assert that political alienation and economic insecurity amongst “white” workers was bound up with issues of race and a sense of betrayal produced by the “liberal nostrums” of multiculturalism and “political correctness.”

The BBC acted throughout as a conduit for the type of propaganda that is the bread-and-butter of the BNP. Indeed, Griffin participated in the BBC discussion panel on its “White Season” without any protest. The series was greeted enthusiastically by the media. Writing in the Financial Times, under the headline “White men unburdened,” John Lloyd welcomed the fact that “A cultural movement is happening within liberal opinion. It no longer greets immigrants with open arms.” Notions of “assimilation, cultural diversity and mutual tolerance” were “now in contest,” he wrote, including in “Britain’s most important cultural institution, the BBC.”

The World Socialist Web Site explained at the time, “From the Labour Party’s role as the chief ally of the Bush administration in the US and its doctrine of preemptive war, to the campaign by supporters of the New Statesman and the Euston Manifesto group against the ‘appeasement’ of Islamic fundamentalism, former pacifists and leftists have become transformed into political apologists for free-market capitalism and so-called liberal imperialism.”

It is the BNP’s repeated attack on Islam as being “incompatible with democracy” that has particularly earned it airspace. Its talk of a “clash of civilisations” repeats in unadulterated form the claims made by the ruling elite in Britain, the United States and elsewhere to justify their predatory wars of colonial conquest in Afghanistan and Iraq and condition public opinion for even more brutal interventions against countries such as Iran.

At the same time, the BNP has been able to exploit the political disaffection caused by Labour’s big business agenda and the tremendous growth in class inequalities this has caused to posture as an “anti-establishment” party. In turn the “establishment” has portrayed it as an expression of the legitimate grievances of “white workers” to again further its own reactionary agenda.

Not a word of this is mentioned by the UAF and others involved in the anti-BNP protests. In calling for a type of “cordon sanitaire” to be placed around Griffin, they bolster the credentials of the likes of Labour’s Justice Secretary Jack Straw who has said he will use his “Question Time” appearance to expose the BNP as “far-right extremists” intent on causing “immense harm in what is otherwise the most tolerant country in the world.”

Straw has no right to lecture anyone. As home secretary, he piloted Britain’s draconian anti-terror laws that severely curtail democratic rights. As foreign secretary, he was directly responsible for the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq that has caused tens of thousands of deaths, and led the campaign of lies and disinformation used to justify it.



In 2006, Straw mounted an anti-Muslim provocation of his own, penning a newspaper article in which he denounced women wearing the veil—or niqab—for undermining social cohesion.


As for the Conservative’s representative on “Question Time,” Lady Sayeeda Warsi, she has previously opined that immigration into the UK is “out of control” and that BNP supporters “have some very legitimate views.”

In her speech to this year’s Conservative Party conference, she accused “multicultural” polices of “failing Britain” and attacked the supposed undermining of the Christian religion, saying that, “Strong societies are built on cherishing their heritage.”

The Conservative Party itself has joined an extreme right-wing coalition in the European parliament that includes sympathisers of the Nazi SS and anti-Semites.


It is a sign of how far to the right official politics has moved that, according to the Observer’s Nick Cohen (himself a signatory to the Euston Manifesto—a pro-imperialist rant against Islam), the BBC had originally booked Douglas Murray from the think tank Centre for Social Cohesion to appear alongside Griffin. As “he is also from the right,” Cohen wrote, the broadcaster had initially reasoned that Murray “could tell the audience that it was possible to worry about immigration without being compelled to vote BNP.” But the BBC had “second thoughts,” fearing that should Murray “say anything in favour of immigration controls, Griffin would look like he was the voice of consensus.”



An aspect of the concerns now being expressed by Hain, Johnson and others over Griffin’s appearance on “Question Time” is the fear that it will reveal just how little really separates a quasi-fascist organisation from the “legitimate” official parties.


This goes to the heart of the political lie on which the current anti-BNP protests are being mobilised: that racism and fascism can be fought through appeals to the institutions and representatives of bourgeois rule to “uphold” democracy.


The rhetorical cries of No Pasarán only conceals the politically putrid state of parliamentary democracy in Britain and disarms workers and youth as to the real source of the fascist threat—the advanced preparations by the ruling elite for a savage offensive against the living standards and democratic rights of working people. In demanding state proscriptions against the BNP, moreover, the UAF and its backers are colluding with the state and legitimising anti-democratic measures whose ultimate target is the workers’ movement itself.


The struggle against reaction and in defence of civil liberties can only be carried forward by a politically conscious and combative working class, as part of the struggle against the capitalist profit system, its state apparatus and its political representatives. What is required is not diversionary and bankrupt protest stunts and sloganeering, but the building of a new socialist party to lead this fight.

wswsdot
org/articles/2009/oct2009/bnpa-o22.shtml



.
Atheist

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10/22/2009 01:12 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
TPTB are scared shitless of the BNP, instead of giving them airtime and debating them they demonise and censor them.


TPTB are not that stupid, i think something more sinister is afoot, there is a rise in right wing parties in europe again.

Im starting to think TPTB want race riots in the streets etc, i have not worked out why yet.

I am scared for my hard working black and asian friends.

The best thing if they are scared would be to go back to the mother countries ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 800055


They were born here, they are also hard working important members of the human race, scientists.

We are not talking about some sponging 20-30 something muslim men who preach hate, or these black wannabe gangsters, those are the clowns who should be deported.
Atheist
~•:*Winnie*:•~  (OP)

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10/22/2009 01:12 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
Do not expect to much from debate tonight as all questions are pre-vetted. And BBC = government controlled.

Its not just immigrant issue that has garnered the BNP votes,one of its policies is to confront head on, yob culture in Britain.People are fed up being frightened in their own homes!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 800106


and the argument there of course, is that since we are not allowed to defend ourselves in our own homes we are and always will be frightened in them!
happy now?
airlie
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10/22/2009 01:13 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
I'm livid with the protesters. They are, by trying to stop Nick Griffin from appearing on Question Time, being exactly what they profess to oppose, and that is committing a fascist act.
Most people who have looked beneath the veneer know that the BNP have some very objectionable policies. The fact is that a lot of people vote with their gut, and don't delve into party manifestos etc. The BNP need to be questioned in the main stream media to cast the light of publicity into all their dark corners.
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 01:14 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
Looks like Question Time will probably break viewing records tonight
Atheist

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10/22/2009 01:15 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
its all about the divide and conquer... thats all. TPTB wanted this, its been the game all along.

yes same here, there are many decent black, asian and chinese BRITISH people here.
 Quoting: ~•:*Winnie*:•~


I know, we need doctors, police, firemen, nurses, scientists teachers, i couldnt give a fuck what colour of skin they are, people are people.

Something is afoot, look at the changes in european politics for the past 10 years.

We are in a depression again and the people are pissed, we dont need a racist party in power, but we dont need lying bullshiting ones like labour and the tories either.
Atheist
~•:*Winnie*:•~  (OP)

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10/22/2009 01:19 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
its all about the divide and conquer... thats all. TPTB wanted this, its been the game all along.

yes same here, there are many decent black, asian and chinese BRITISH people here.


I know, we need doctors, police, firemen, nurses, scientists teachers, i couldnt give a fuck what colour of skin they are, people are people.

Something is afoot, look at the changes in european politics for the past 10 years.

We are in a depression again and the people are pissed, we dont need a racist party in power, but we dont need lying bullshiting ones like labour and the tories either.
 Quoting: Atheist


agreed, big time!
happy now?
Atheist

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10/22/2009 01:19 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
I'm livid with the protesters. They are, by trying to stop Nick Griffin from appearing on Question Time, being exactly what they profess to oppose, and that is committing a fascist act.
 Quoting: airlie 799949


This is why it reeks of orchestration.

There was a guy on TV before, he basically said there are limits to free speach and that what they are trying to do is stop the BNP being allowed to air their views.

I am sat going WTF? this is meant to be a anti fascist protest, you dont fight fascism with fascism.

It really stinks of divide and conquer.
Atheist
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 01:19 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
Looks like Question Time will probably break viewing records tonight
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 351611


and a few chairs, hopefully, and maybe even the table?
~•:*Winnie*:•~  (OP)

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10/22/2009 01:20 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
Looks like Question Time will probably break viewing records tonight


and a few chairs, hopefully, and maybe even the table?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 800071


lol
happy now?
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 01:21 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
I'm livid with the protesters. They are, by trying to stop Nick Griffin from appearing on Question Time, being exactly what they profess to oppose, and that is committing a fascist act.


This is why it reeks of orchestration.

There was a guy on TV before, he basically said there are limits to free speach and that what they are trying to do is stop the BNP being allowed to air their views.

I am sat going WTF? this is meant to be a anti fascist protest, you dont fight fascism with fascism.

It really stinks of divide and conquer.
 Quoting: Atheist


ohyeah

but the dumb fucking sheep won't put two and two together till it's FAR too late, and we're all on the street gouging each others eyes out!
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 01:21 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
Looks like Question Time will probably break viewing records tonight


and a few chairs, hopefully, and maybe even the table?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 800071

lol,Admit it we are all going to be glued to our screens
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 01:23 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
It seems you just cant please everyone we have fought wars to maintain democracy and are fighting now in a effort to give people a democracy yet however it seems that when a party is democratily elected that has views that differ from the mainstream they people suddenly dont want them to able to share thier views which got them electated

Seems a tad hypocritical (sp?) to me, you can speak until you start to disagree with the mainstream then your just not welcome
Atheist

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10/22/2009 01:24 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
this is all just a distraction manipulated by TPTB to deflect public attention from what is really going on. BNP is probably under MI5 control anyway, like the old British Communist Party was.
 Quoting: Percy Thrower 786818



That is probably completely true, i just dont understand what is going on and why.
Atheist
Atheist

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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
The very same freedom of speech that is allowing them to protest in the first place.


yes i agree. i do support freedom of speech and the right to protest. however, i dont support at all the BNP and i think Nick Griff is an arse.
 Quoting: ~•:*Winnie*:•~


He is an arse, but he is not stupid enough to go on TV and say something that would be considered racist, i have seen him on TV before and he comes across as an articulate and educated man, he studied at cambridge.

Nothing major will be on TV, i expect the panelists will try and trap him and make him say something stupid, but he is too smart for that.
Atheist
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 01:31 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
I for one will watch, he is tapping into the sheep's fear.

And for all you shills here in GLP land, the true shills are those paid to stand in front of the BBC protesting. You may salute your fellow shillers. lol

This is all the ramp up to the winter of discontent of 2009/2010.

It's all coming together nicely.
dont'cha think ;)
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 01:32 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
I for one will watch, he is tapping into the sheep's fear.

And for all you shills here in GLP land, the true shills are those paid to stand in front of the BBC protesting. You may salute your fellow shillers. lol

This is all the ramp up to the winter of discontent of 2009/2010.

It's all coming together nicely.
dont'cha think ;)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 794821

ohyeah
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 01:34 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
did you hear the BBC reporter then?

'we don't know what time the show is being recorded. we don't even know if the audience is in the building'

what a LYING twat!

why am i surprised though? lol
Atheist

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10/22/2009 01:39 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER


Listen to the victim, abused by the system
The basis is racist, you know that we must face this.
"It can't happen here". Oh yeah?
"Take a look around at the cities and the towns."

See them hunting, creeping, sneaking
Breeding fear and loathing with the lies they're speaking
The knife, the gun, broken bottle, petrol bomb
There is no future when the past soon come.

And when they come to ethnically cleanse me
Will you speak out? Will you defend me?
Or laugh through a glass eye as they rape our lives
Trampled underfoot by the right on the rise

You owe us....Ich Bin Ein Auslander
You owe us everything... Ich Bin Ein Auslander
You owe us....Ich Bin Ein Auslander
You owe us everything... Ich Bin Ein Auslander

Welcome to a state where the politics of hate
Shout loud in the crowd "Watch them beat us all down"
There's a rising tide in the rivers of blood
But if the answer isn't violence, neither is your silence

If they come to ethnically cleanse me
Will you speak out? Will you defend me?
Freedom of expression doesn't make it alright
Trampled underfoot by the rise of the right

You owe us....Ich Bin Ein Auslander
You owe us everything... Ich Bin Ein Auslander
You owe us....Ich Bin Ein Auslander
You owe us everything... Ich Bin Ein Auslander
Atheist
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 01:45 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
I don't support political parties or individuals be they left, right, centre or whatever.

I will say that I think these student protestors, rent-a-mob, unemployed, pc communists are total hypocrites. I don't think that anyone's opinion no matter how offensive should be stifled. And I think that the police are pathetic, ANYONE trespassing or obstructing traffic should be prosecuted instead of given a slap on the wrist and let free.

I will watch the program and I think that Griffin's only hope is to show Jack Straw up by admitting that the BNP are a protest party for the electorate and that they wouldn't have done so well in the euro elections if Uncle Jack's party hadn't systematically destroyed this country with his pals for the last 12 years. I want to see Jack Straw get his just desserts on national tv. Remember BNP are powerless and not dangerous at the end of the day, Straw has demonstrated his colours on many occasions and is the real threat.
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 01:52 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
TPTB are scared shitless of the BNP, instead of giving them airtime and debating them they demonise and censor them.


TPTB are not that stupid, i think something more sinister is afoot, there is a rise in right wing parties in europe again.

Im starting to think TPTB want race riots in the streets etc, i have not worked out why yet.

I am scared for my hard working black and asian friends.

The best thing if they are scared would be to go back to the mother countries ?


They were born here, they are also hard working important members of the human race, scientists.

We are not talking about some sponging 20-30 something muslim men who preach hate, or these black wannabe gangsters, those are the clowns who should be deported.
 Quoting: Atheist


Well said.

Most non-white people born in the UK are as British as you or I.

I do believe, however, that Islam is totally incompatible with our Western, liberal (in the classic sense of "liberal") social and economic ideal.

Islam should be made illegal, like Scientology was in Germany.

It is a cult of violence and hate, spread by the sword.
Atheist

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10/22/2009 01:58 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
I do believe, however, that Islam is totally incompatible with our Western, liberal (in the classic sense of "liberal") social and economic ideal.

Islam should be made illegal, like Scientology was in Germany.

It is a cult of violence and hate, spread by the sword.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 800104


Personally i think this should be a secular country.

I have nothing against islam or christianity etc, especially nobodies right to practice it, so long as it stays in the home, or in the churches and mosques.

It should not be in schools, and you should not be given special treatment because of your religion in society.
Atheist
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 02:07 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
This whole thing is really bugging me. DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN HEAR OR WATCH. If a black or Asian person wanted to go on TV and declare that every white person is a demon, I might not agree with their views but as a white person will defend their right to say whatever they like. As one of the great philosophers said 'I hate what you say but I will defend with my life your right to say it'. I BELIEVE IN FREEDOM.
 Quoting: christie 800101


Sums up what I was about to say.

I do believe protesters have the right to be there to show their disaproval but to try and stop him speaking just isn't cricket.
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 02:12 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
Breaking News

4:42pm UK, Thursday October 22, 2009
Anti-BNP Protesters Breach BBC Security

Mark Langford, Sky News Online
Anti-BNP protesters have broken into BBC TV Centre grounds ahead of Nick Griffin's appearance on Question Time tonight.

BNP protests BBC TV Centre

Anti-BNP protesters breach security at BBC TV Centre ahead of Nick Griffin's arrival

About 30 people managed to get past police lines during struggles with officers drafted in to protect the entrance to Television Centre in White City, west London.

Some appeared to have gained entry to the building where they were pursued by police.

About 50 officers were deployed to police the demonstration.
 Quoting: ~•:*Winnie*:•~



"there will be blood"

Lotus Feet

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10/22/2009 02:35 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
"there will be blood"


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 800155



Indeed.

I do not agree with the BNP leader. However, he should be allowed to speak unfettered by those that do not agree with him.

If he steps out of line there are plenty on the programme to put him in his place. The chair is also excellent at his job.

Lotus

Last Edited by Lotus Feet on 10/22/2009 02:37 PM
i love satan
~•:*Winnie*:•~  (OP)

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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
according to Sky being relayed to me by my partner 3 police officers have been injured, 1 has been taken to hospital.

thats a shame.
happy now?
Anonymous Coward
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10/22/2009 03:47 PM
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Re: PROTESTERS STORM BBC DUE TO AN APPERANCE BY BNP LEADER
TPTB are scared shitless of the BNP, instead of giving them airtime and debating them they demonise and censor them.


TPTB are not that stupid, i think something more sinister is afoot, there is a rise in right wing parties in europe again.

Im starting to think TPTB want race riots in the streets etc, i have not worked out why yet.

I am scared for my hard working black and asian friends.


There will be widespread riots all over Europe in the years to come. This is what the PTB want and are actively encouraging. This will allow them to clamp down and ensure, eventually, that we all obey. Similar to what you in the US are experiencing through the crap that Bush pushed through in his term ..... "homeland security."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 796156



Really!? - don't you get it yet - it could not be more transparent.


Decades go the kGB decided the only way to defet the West was via cultural and ideological subversion - leading to social collapse.

They simply got their dupes in the West to swallow the whole PC multiculturalism deal - fill the West with unassimilable Muslims who will rapidly outbreed and colonise us - leading inevitably to a tipping point, in which the whole of Europe becomes embroiled in the mother of all civil wars. When most of us are dead - Russia just waltzes in and claims the lot - probably make out they have come to save us from the Muslim hordes.

You just have to keep the frog from realising it's predicament - that's what all the leftist 'antifacists' are doing now with Nick griffin - making sure his messge is kept outside the bounds of accepted debate.





GLP