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Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!

 
telling it straight

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03/23/2023 01:06 AM

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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
The whole rapture doctrine has only been a teaching of the church for less than 200 yrs. The previous 1800 years Christians believed and taught no such thing.

Read all of Mark 13 and Revelation 6 and then tell me you still believe there’s a rapture.
Anonymous Coward
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03/23/2023 01:10 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
...


If we are drawing conclusions then where does it say anyone is born in the millennium unless we look into the OT which would then mean we need to pay attention to Zechariah and his prophecy where enemies of Israel must attend the feast of tabernacles.

So where are children born in the millennium and why does anyone other then resurrected saints need to be in the millennium?

We already know that resurrected saints populate the millennium. How do resurrected saints reproduce with their spirit bodies?
 Quoting: Achduke7




Yes most of the prophecise about the Milenial Reign are in the old Testamant.

And yes of cousre I agree with what Zechariah says. It still does not say that they are unsaved people. It simply doesnt say that at all.

And i also agree that the resurected and raptured with glorified bodies do not reproduce. That is the whole point of the post. That during the pre-trib rapture 100% of the belivers are removed and get glorified bodies.

The non belivers that are left will go through Trib. The ones that die for Christ during the Trib will be resurected/raptured and receive glorified bodies (Yes I beleive in a post Trib resurection rapture!).

The saved survivors of the Trib both Israel and gentile will enter the Kingdom with natural Bodies and procreate.

Again I see your line of reasoning and I respect that. You are not just pulling things out of thin air. And it is possible that you are correct.

In full context I just completely disagree thats all.

Mathew 24:30 Mathew 25:31 refer to the same time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 83230847


I do not buy into the 2 rapture theory. The only thing that solves all situations is a Pre-Wrath resurrection. The 2 witnesses and tribulation saints are resurrected just as all other saints at the first resurrection and it is clear you do not want to be in any resurrection that follows the first.


1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 Quoting: Achduke7


do you believe that you can lose your salvation?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 83230847


Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Base12

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03/23/2023 01:20 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
This is the Rapture...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


If some of you do not believe the verse, that is your choice, however, please stop with the 'there is no Rapture' nonsense when the verse is right there for all to see. Always has been, always will be.

Enough with the psy-op already.

putin
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Anonymous Coward
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03/23/2023 01:20 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
Here’s a really good book of Revelation study.



[link to youtu.be (secure)]

Here’s the rest of them at the Link.

[link to youtube.com (secure)]
Achduke7

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03/23/2023 01:21 AM

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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
...


If we are drawing conclusions then where does it say anyone is born in the millennium unless we look into the OT which would then mean we need to pay attention to Zechariah and his prophecy where enemies of Israel must attend the feast of tabernacles.

So where are children born in the millennium and why does anyone other then resurrected saints need to be in the millennium?

We already know that resurrected saints populate the millennium. How do resurrected saints reproduce with their spirit bodies?
 Quoting: Achduke7




Yes most of the prophecise about the Milenial Reign are in the old Testamant.

And yes of cousre I agree with what Zechariah says. It still does not say that they are unsaved people. It simply doesnt say that at all.

And i also agree that the resurected and raptured with glorified bodies do not reproduce. That is the whole point of the post. That during the pre-trib rapture 100% of the belivers are removed and get glorified bodies.

The non belivers that are left will go through Trib. The ones that die for Christ during the Trib will be resurected/raptured and receive glorified bodies (Yes I beleive in a post Trib resurection rapture!).

The saved survivors of the Trib both Israel and gentile will enter the Kingdom with natural Bodies and procreate.

Again I see your line of reasoning and I respect that. You are not just pulling things out of thin air. And it is possible that you are correct.

In full context I just completely disagree thats all.

Mathew 24:30 Mathew 25:31 refer to the same time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 83230847


I do not buy into the 2 rapture theory. The only thing that solves all situations is a Pre-Wrath resurrection. The 2 witnesses and tribulation saints are resurrected just as all other saints at the first resurrection and it is clear you do not want to be in any resurrection that follows the first.


1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 Quoting: Achduke7


do you believe that you can lose your salvation?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 83230847


I believe those that are truly saved by the Holy Spirit cannot lose their salvation.

The problem is that everyone says they are currently saved by the Holy Spirit but Paul says that is not true.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Achduke
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03/23/2023 01:23 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
This is the Rapture...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


If some of you do not believe the verse, that is your choice, however, please stop with the 'there is no Rapture' nonsense when the verse is right there for all to see. Always has been, always will be.

Enough with the psy-op already.

putin
 Quoting: Base12


After Tribulation, caught up with the resurrected Saints at Yahshua’s return. It’s clearly spelled out in Matthew 24!
Base12

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03/23/2023 01:25 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
This is the Rapture...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


If some of you do not believe the verse, that is your choice, however, please stop with the 'there is no Rapture' nonsense when the verse is right there for all to see. Always has been, always will be.

Enough with the psy-op already.

putin
 Quoting: Base12


After Tribulation, caught up with the resurrected Saints at Yahshua’s return. It’s clearly spelled out in Matthew 24!
 Quoting: -Kate-

What is your point?
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Anonymous Coward
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03/23/2023 01:28 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
This is the Rapture...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


If some of you do not believe the verse, that is your choice, however, please stop with the 'there is no Rapture' nonsense when the verse is right there for all to see. Always has been, always will be.

Enough with the psy-op already.

putin
 Quoting: Base12


After Tribulation, caught up with the resurrected Saints at Yahshua’s return. It’s clearly spelled out in Matthew 24!
 Quoting: -Kate-

What is your point?
 Quoting: Base12


Oh, that’s what you meant? :)
Anonymous Coward
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03/23/2023 01:35 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
Yahshua removes us off the earth before the WRATH is poured out, we are here during the judgments on the nations that come in Tribulation.

It’s a parallel to Egypt. Be ready to go in haste every PASSOVER!
Anonymous Coward
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03/23/2023 02:00 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
What a coincidence. The great reset appears just when everything points to the Tribulation starting. I would say it’s time for you all to get neared up. Or maybe you don’t care about prophecies fulfilled because you are sure you will be raptured.

Matthew 24:43
“But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.”
Anonymous Coward
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03/23/2023 05:13 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
The saved survivors of the Trib both Israel and gentile will enter the Kingdom with natural Bodies and procreate.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 83230847

Those that do not take the Mark are killed...

Revelation 13:15
"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."


What do you mean by saying that the Saved survive and enter the Kingdom?
 Quoting: Base12


the ones who turn to Christ and dont take the mark.
Anonymous Coward
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03/23/2023 05:20 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
1 Thes 4 and Mathew 24 separate events.

Paul ministered to the Body of Chris, Jesus to the juize.

There was no Body of Christ Before Christ death.

The Body of Christ and Israel have 2 different plans for Salvation and 2 different inheritances.

If you believe the Pre trib rapture is new then Google "pre-trib rapture before Darby".

If you are a TRUE truth seeker, this will answer many questions.
Anonymous Coward
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03/23/2023 05:40 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
This is the Rapture...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


If some of you do not believe the verse, that is your choice, however, please stop with the 'there is no Rapture' nonsense when the verse is right there for all to see. Always has been, always will be.

Enough with the psy-op already.

putin
 Quoting: Base12
Anonymous Coward
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03/23/2023 08:31 PM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
If we are drawing conclusions then where does it say anyone is born in the millennium unless we look into the OT which would then mean we need to pay attention to Zechariah and his prophecy where enemies of Israel must attend the feast of tabernacles.

So where are children born in the millennium and why does anyone other then resurrected saints need to be in the millennium?

We already know that resurrected saints populate the millennium. How do resurrected saints reproduce with their spirit bodies?
 Quoting: Achduke7


I'm going to chime in here for a moment, hoping maybe this post can help people reconcile logically the pre-trib rapture with the martyrs, etc.

I'm replying to Achduke since we had a back and forth sometime ago in another thread.

I made a post in this thread earlier that claimed no unbeliever will escape the winepress and enter the millennium.

That's my reason for an earlier pre-trib rapture of the living.

There are also other verses that also support no unbeliever making it into the millennium such as this one:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


I'm also sure you are well aware that no women and children were spared in Noah's flood or Sodom and Gomorrah either, so it shouldn't be difficult to see why it would be any different with the winepress at the 2nd coming, the separation is part of the harvest.

First regarding your questions, you know very well resurrected saints won't be having offspring even though glorified bodies will also be physical since we know that from Jesus' own resurrected body.

Luke 20:35
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

I'm sure you also understand that those with glorified bodies won't become the rebels, it has to be flesh and blood.

As for a glimpse of flesh and blood in the millennium, this is given in Isaiah.

Isaiah 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


I think what is happening is that people are incorrectly putting limits on the scope of the 1st resurrection which produces a logical problem.

If people realized that Christ was also part of the first resurrection, then maybe it would help them to understand that the 1st resurrection is a "resurrection of the just" which happens in phases, each group resurrected respective to their own time and order, and therefore making it possible to reconcile a pre-trib rapture logically.

This isn't a perfect list, but off the top of my head an example to help illustrate:


1st Resurrection A) Christ fulfilled firstfruits, the Bridegroom, the HEAD.

1st Resurrection B) Dead in Christ, Church Saints, The Bride, the BODY.

RAPTURED - The Living in Christ, Church Saints, The Bride, the BODY.

THE WEDDING (PROCESSIONAL)

- - - - - - -

144,000 - Seal of God, Wilderness

1st Resurrection C-1) Tribulation Martyrs, Tribulation Saints, told to WAIT.

1st Resurrection C-2) Great Multitude, Tribulation Saints, joins the Martyrs.

RETURN FROM THE WEDDING

1st Resurrection C-3) Old Testament Saints.

TARES (Winepress) - Unbelievers treaded, will not escape.

WHEAT (Gathered from 4 Winds) - Flesh and blood surviving Believers enter the millennium.

THE WEDDING (FEAST)

The Millennium Begins


Satan counterfeits God and this continues into the last days.

If the spacing holds, here's a brief list for example:

Holy Counterfeit

God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) Satan, AC, FP
The Bride (New/Test., Child) Daughter Babylon (Young)
Israel (Old/Test., Woman) Mother Babylon (Old)
Seal of God Mark of the Beast
Church Age Dragon
Millennial Kingdom Sea Beast
New Earth/Heavens Earth Beast

The counterfeit is not always straight forward, but more of a mix and match.

Take notice that a 1st Resurrection C-1, C-2, C-3 would resemble an aspect of the Sea Beast (leopard/bear/lion), also a C1/C2/C3.

... and as for someone posting the Great Reset coincidentally lining up with the start of tribulation, yes that is exactly what it is, a transition from the Dragon to the Sea Beast, from Daughter Babylon back to Mother Babylon:

The Great Reset = A SNARE

Luke 21:35
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Anonymous Coward
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03/23/2023 08:47 PM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!




I live up the road from hillsong church in sydney.

Been there a few times.

Not only is most of the church dead jow because they all vaxxed...yes..he preached the vax from the pulpit..

But he did indeed get caught trying to cover up all the sexual abuse in the church.

Rapture tards always gonna rapture tard.
Base12

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03/23/2023 11:37 PM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
As for a glimpse of flesh and blood in the millennium, this is given in Isaiah.

Isaiah 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84434626

I am of the opinion that folks are misinterpreting the above verse. The word 'for' should be understood as to mean 'otherwise'...

Isaiah 65:20
"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for [otherwise] the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."


What the above verse is teaching is that all of the Saved in the New Heavens and New Earth will all be the same age in their Glorified Bodies... OTHERWISE... there will be fetuses that would need 24hr care for hundreds of years. Old people would be stuck in their old decrepit bodies, suffering for ages. it would be like a curse for them.

The verse is highlighting the silliness of being in bodies that either never age, or age very slowly, while being too old or too young to be self-sufficient. Add mortality to the equation, and it gets even worse.
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Anonymous Coward
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03/24/2023 12:03 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!

I live up the road from hillsong church in sydney.

Been there a few times.

Not only is most of the church dead jow because they all vaxxed...yes..he preached the vax from the pulpit..

But he did indeed get caught trying to cover up all the sexual abuse in the church.

Rapture tards always gonna rapture tard.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85497734


Hillsong Church is a Charismatic/Pentecostal, Laodicean, lukewarm, fake, "seeker-friendly", "Prosperity", "power of positive thought" MegaChurch, Inc.

They believe that one must believe in Jesus, speak in tongues, and then do good works in order to be saved. Only the first of these is true.

You will know them by their fruits. If their leadership is rotten, then their church is rotten at the core. One bad apple will spoil the barrel, if you let it.

And I can see no evidence that they support the 'rapture' in their beliefs statement found here: [link to hillsong.com (secure)]

You may be barking up the wrong tree. Again. But then you love the Guilt by Association fallacy, don't you?

What do you believe?
Anonymous Coward
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03/24/2023 12:06 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 KJV

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who are "....them which are asleep"?

Who are "we which are alive..."?



If the above is the 2nd coming of the Lord, does this not include all living humans on earth at the end of the TRIB?



IF SO ....

.... then who are the people with NATURAL BODIES that populate the earth and procreate and live and die during the millineal reign of Christ?

..... And are tested when the enemy is released again after 1000 years?


damned


CONCLUSION: There is a pretrib AND post trib rapture. Yes TWO!

Paul (above) taught pretrib.

Jesus ONLY taught the POST trib rapture. (pretrib was not possible until after His death).


Why yall Pre-trib haters so mad??!


bert-TIAll
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 83050021


you are an AI data mining bot for starters, and no one is hating on the pretribbers, except maybe for me. I don't hate them, but I am angry that their stupidity will hurt a lot of people. I get angry at lies, and pretrib rapture is a lie.
 Quoting: AllisonWonderland52

Please expand on as to why you are angry at their stupidity and how it will hurt a lot of people. How does a belief a person has make you angry and how does a belief someone has hurt others?
okie1

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03/24/2023 12:42 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
This is what gets me about the pre vs post trib debate. the pre tribbers are like, So yea this is what we believe but if you think something different that's fine because we can all agree that Jesus died for our sins and that's all that really matters.

And then the post tribbers be like, Infidels!
okie
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03/24/2023 12:44 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
This is what gets me about the pre vs post trib debate. the pre tribbers are like, So yea this is what we believe but if you think something different that's fine because we can all agree that Jesus died for our sins and that's all that really matters.

And then the post tribbers be like, Infidels!
 Quoting: okie1


Thats because the pre tribbers are all satanic pedophiles.
Achduke7

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03/24/2023 07:51 AM

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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
If we are drawing conclusions then where does it say anyone is born in the millennium unless we look into the OT which would then mean we need to pay attention to Zechariah and his prophecy where enemies of Israel must attend the feast of tabernacles.

So where are children born in the millennium and why does anyone other then resurrected saints need to be in the millennium?

We already know that resurrected saints populate the millennium. How do resurrected saints reproduce with their spirit bodies?
 Quoting: Achduke7


I'm going to chime in here for a moment, hoping maybe this post can help people reconcile logically the pre-trib rapture with the martyrs, etc.

I'm replying to Achduke since we had a back and forth sometime ago in another thread.

I made a post in this thread earlier that claimed no unbeliever will escape the winepress and enter the millennium.

That's my reason for an earlier pre-trib rapture of the living.

There are also other verses that also support no unbeliever making it into the millennium such as this one:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


I'm also sure you are well aware that no women and children were spared in Noah's flood or Sodom and Gomorrah either, so it shouldn't be difficult to see why it would be any different with the winepress at the 2nd coming, the separation is part of the harvest.

First regarding your questions, you know very well resurrected saints won't be having offspring even though glorified bodies will also be physical since we know that from Jesus' own resurrected body.

Luke 20:35
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

I'm sure you also understand that those with glorified bodies won't become the rebels, it has to be flesh and blood.

As for a glimpse of flesh and blood in the millennium, this is given in Isaiah.

Isaiah 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


I think what is happening is that people are incorrectly putting limits on the scope of the 1st resurrection which produces a logical problem.

If people realized that Christ was also part of the first resurrection, then maybe it would help them to understand that the 1st resurrection is a "resurrection of the just" which happens in phases, each group resurrected respective to their own time and order, and therefore making it possible to reconcile a pre-trib rapture logically.

This isn't a perfect list, but off the top of my head an example to help illustrate:


1st Resurrection A) Christ fulfilled firstfruits, the Bridegroom, the HEAD.

1st Resurrection B) Dead in Christ, Church Saints, The Bride, the BODY.

RAPTURED - The Living in Christ, Church Saints, The Bride, the BODY.

THE WEDDING (PROCESSIONAL)

- - - - - - -

144,000 - Seal of God, Wilderness

1st Resurrection C-1) Tribulation Martyrs, Tribulation Saints, told to WAIT.

1st Resurrection C-2) Great Multitude, Tribulation Saints, joins the Martyrs.

RETURN FROM THE WEDDING

1st Resurrection C-3) Old Testament Saints.

TARES (Winepress) - Unbelievers treaded, will not escape.

WHEAT (Gathered from 4 Winds) - Flesh and blood surviving Believers enter the millennium.

THE WEDDING (FEAST)

The Millennium Begins


Satan counterfeits God and this continues into the last days.

If the spacing holds, here's a brief list for example:

Holy Counterfeit

God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) Satan, AC, FP
The Bride (New/Test., Child) Daughter Babylon (Young)
Israel (Old/Test., Woman) Mother Babylon (Old)
Seal of God Mark of the Beast
Church Age Dragon
Millennial Kingdom Sea Beast
New Earth/Heavens Earth Beast

The counterfeit is not always straight forward, but more of a mix and match.

Take notice that a 1st Resurrection C-1, C-2, C-3 would resemble an aspect of the Sea Beast (leopard/bear/lion), also a C1/C2/C3.

... and as for someone posting the Great Reset coincidentally lining up with the start of tribulation, yes that is exactly what it is, a transition from the Dragon to the Sea Beast, from Daughter Babylon back to Mother Babylon:

The Great Reset = A SNARE

Luke 21:35
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84434626


You leave out that the 1st Resurrection will be in the twink of an eye. Paul wrote this after Christ was Resurrected. Christ was the First Fruits Resurrection. He is the First Fruits which is first and spotless fruit offered up to God.

The 144K are also known as the First Fruits. Logically they would go before everyone else.

I do not know if their will be children or not in the millennium. The OT makes it sound like there will be. The OT also makes it sound like nations that attacked Israel will still be around.

In any case that does not prove pre vs post trib.

What I do know is the Dead in Christ go first.

It is not a constant resurrection of Dead, Living, Dead, Living...

From what Paul wrote it looks like all the Dead go first, leaving no room for the Dead in Christ to go at a later time. We know that the tribulations saints are Dead in Christ and are resurrected because the Bible is clear on this point.

I think what we need is a discussion on the Millennium vs The End of the World.

The Millennium is not the end and it looks like people will still sin since Satan still causes some trouble near the end of the Millennium. True believers or those that are saved in the Millennium would not be affected by Satan.

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 03/24/2023 07:52 AM
Achduke
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
If we are drawing conclusions then where does it say anyone is born in the millennium unless we look into the OT which would then mean we need to pay attention to Zechariah and his prophecy where enemies of Israel must attend the feast of tabernacles.

So where are children born in the millennium and why does anyone other then resurrected saints need to be in the millennium?

We already know that resurrected saints populate the millennium. How do resurrected saints reproduce with their spirit bodies?
 Quoting: Achduke7


I'm going to chime in here for a moment, hoping maybe this post can help people reconcile logically the pre-trib rapture with the martyrs, etc.

I'm replying to Achduke since we had a back and forth sometime ago in another thread.

I made a post in this thread earlier that claimed no unbeliever will escape the winepress and enter the millennium.

That's my reason for an earlier pre-trib rapture of the living.

There are also other verses that also support no unbeliever making it into the millennium such as this one:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


I'm also sure you are well aware that no women and children were spared in Noah's flood or Sodom and Gomorrah either, so it shouldn't be difficult to see why it would be any different with the winepress at the 2nd coming, the separation is part of the harvest.

First regarding your questions, you know very well resurrected saints won't be having offspring even though glorified bodies will also be physical since we know that from Jesus' own resurrected body.

Luke 20:35
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

I'm sure you also understand that those with glorified bodies won't become the rebels, it has to be flesh and blood.

As for a glimpse of flesh and blood in the millennium, this is given in Isaiah.

Isaiah 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


I think what is happening is that people are incorrectly putting limits on the scope of the 1st resurrection which produces a logical problem.

If people realized that Christ was also part of the first resurrection, then maybe it would help them to understand that the 1st resurrection is a "resurrection of the just" which happens in phases, each group resurrected respective to their own time and order, and therefore making it possible to reconcile a pre-trib rapture logically.

This isn't a perfect list, but off the top of my head an example to help illustrate:


1st Resurrection A) Christ fulfilled firstfruits, the Bridegroom, the HEAD.

1st Resurrection B) Dead in Christ, Church Saints, The Bride, the BODY.

RAPTURED - The Living in Christ, Church Saints, The Bride, the BODY.

THE WEDDING (PROCESSIONAL)

- - - - - - -

144,000 - Seal of God, Wilderness

1st Resurrection C-1) Tribulation Martyrs, Tribulation Saints, told to WAIT.

1st Resurrection C-2) Great Multitude, Tribulation Saints, joins the Martyrs.

RETURN FROM THE WEDDING

1st Resurrection C-3) Old Testament Saints.

TARES (Winepress) - Unbelievers treaded, will not escape.

WHEAT (Gathered from 4 Winds) - Flesh and blood surviving Believers enter the millennium.

THE WEDDING (FEAST)

The Millennium Begins


Satan counterfeits God and this continues into the last days.

If the spacing holds, here's a brief list for example:

Holy Counterfeit

God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) Satan, AC, FP
The Bride (New/Test., Child) Daughter Babylon (Young)
Israel (Old/Test., Woman) Mother Babylon (Old)
Seal of God Mark of the Beast
Church Age Dragon
Millennial Kingdom Sea Beast
New Earth/Heavens Earth Beast

The counterfeit is not always straight forward, but more of a mix and match.

Take notice that a 1st Resurrection C-1, C-2, C-3 would resemble an aspect of the Sea Beast (leopard/bear/lion), also a C1/C2/C3.

... and as for someone posting the Great Reset coincidentally lining up with the start of tribulation, yes that is exactly what it is, a transition from the Dragon to the Sea Beast, from Daughter Babylon back to Mother Babylon:

The Great Reset = A SNARE

Luke 21:35
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84434626


You leave out that the 1st Resurrection will be in the twink of an eye. Paul wrote this after Christ was Resurrected. Christ was the First Fruits Resurrection. He is the First Fruits which is first and spotless fruit offered up to God.

The 144K are also known as the First Fruits. Logically they would go before everyone else.

I do not know if their will be children or not in the millennium. The OT makes it sound like there will be. The OT also makes it sound like nations that attacked Israel will still be around.

In any case that does not prove pre vs post trib.

What I do know is the Dead in Christ go first.

It is not a constant resurrection of Dead, Living, Dead, Living...

From what Paul wrote it looks like all the Dead go first, leaving no room for the Dead in Christ to go at a later time. We know that the tribulations saints are Dead in Christ and are resurrected because the Bible is clear on this point.

I think what we need is a discussion on the Millennium vs The End of the World.

The Millennium is not the end and it looks like people will still sin since Satan still causes some trouble near the end of the Millennium. True believers or those that are saved in the Millennium would not be affected by Satan.
 Quoting: Achduke7


The part of the 1st resurrection involving the church saints is in the "twinkling of an eye".

The "twinkling of an eye" is an idiom,
an expression referring to "twilight",
it occurs in the evening or the morning.

Anyone alive who misses the rapture per say, goes into the "twilight zone", aka tribulation.
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
If we are drawing conclusions then where does it say anyone is born in the millennium unless we look into the OT which would then mean we need to pay attention to Zechariah and his prophecy where enemies of Israel must attend the feast of tabernacles.

So where are children born in the millennium and why does anyone other then resurrected saints need to be in the millennium?

We already know that resurrected saints populate the millennium. How do resurrected saints reproduce with their spirit bodies?
 Quoting: Achduke7


I'm going to chime in here for a moment, hoping maybe this post can help people reconcile logically the pre-trib rapture with the martyrs, etc.

I'm replying to Achduke since we had a back and forth sometime ago in another thread.

I made a post in this thread earlier that claimed no unbeliever will escape the winepress and enter the millennium.

That's my reason for an earlier pre-trib rapture of the living.

There are also other verses that also support no unbeliever making it into the millennium such as this one:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


I'm also sure you are well aware that no women and children were spared in Noah's flood or Sodom and Gomorrah either, so it shouldn't be difficult to see why it would be any different with the winepress at the 2nd coming, the separation is part of the harvest.

First regarding your questions, you know very well resurrected saints won't be having offspring even though glorified bodies will also be physical since we know that from Jesus' own resurrected body.

Luke 20:35
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

I'm sure you also understand that those with glorified bodies won't become the rebels, it has to be flesh and blood.

As for a glimpse of flesh and blood in the millennium, this is given in Isaiah.

Isaiah 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


I think what is happening is that people are incorrectly putting limits on the scope of the 1st resurrection which produces a logical problem.

If people realized that Christ was also part of the first resurrection, then maybe it would help them to understand that the 1st resurrection is a "resurrection of the just" which happens in phases, each group resurrected respective to their own time and order, and therefore making it possible to reconcile a pre-trib rapture logically.

This isn't a perfect list, but off the top of my head an example to help illustrate:


1st Resurrection A) Christ fulfilled firstfruits, the Bridegroom, the HEAD.

1st Resurrection B) Dead in Christ, Church Saints, The Bride, the BODY.

RAPTURED - The Living in Christ, Church Saints, The Bride, the BODY.

THE WEDDING (PROCESSIONAL)

- - - - - - -

144,000 - Seal of God, Wilderness

1st Resurrection C-1) Tribulation Martyrs, Tribulation Saints, told to WAIT.

1st Resurrection C-2) Great Multitude, Tribulation Saints, joins the Martyrs.

RETURN FROM THE WEDDING

1st Resurrection C-3) Old Testament Saints.

TARES (Winepress) - Unbelievers treaded, will not escape.

WHEAT (Gathered from 4 Winds) - Flesh and blood surviving Believers enter the millennium.

THE WEDDING (FEAST)

The Millennium Begins


Satan counterfeits God and this continues into the last days.

If the spacing holds, here's a brief list for example:

Holy Counterfeit

God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) Satan, AC, FP
The Bride (New/Test., Child) Daughter Babylon (Young)
Israel (Old/Test., Woman) Mother Babylon (Old)
Seal of God Mark of the Beast
Church Age Dragon
Millennial Kingdom Sea Beast
New Earth/Heavens Earth Beast

The counterfeit is not always straight forward, but more of a mix and match.

Take notice that a 1st Resurrection C-1, C-2, C-3 would resemble an aspect of the Sea Beast (leopard/bear/lion), also a C1/C2/C3.

... and as for someone posting the Great Reset coincidentally lining up with the start of tribulation, yes that is exactly what it is, a transition from the Dragon to the Sea Beast, from Daughter Babylon back to Mother Babylon:

The Great Reset = A SNARE

Luke 21:35
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84434626
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03/25/2023 11:35 PM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
Are you Israel or the Body of Christ?

[link to www.godlike.com (secure)]
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03/28/2023 08:10 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
bump
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03/28/2023 08:18 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
Yep, ching Chong is very much the devil's advocate.
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03/30/2023 07:24 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
The "fulness of the Gentiles" triggers the rapture and ends the Church age.
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03/31/2023 04:53 AM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
The "fulness of the Gentiles" triggers the rapture and ends the Church age.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85536198


And Salvation by grace alone is over.

The tribulation is for Israel and the works+faith is back in effect for salvation (dont take the mark, endure to the end).
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04/05/2023 06:56 PM
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Re: Tribulation ...PRE-TRIB HATERS.... stop false teaching and stop hating!
If 1 Thes 4:14-17 refers to Christ second coming then there will be nobody left on the earth during Chrits millenial reign.

Therefore it can only refer to another event: the pre-trib rapture





GLP