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Where does the love go when a relationship is over?

 
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09/12/2022 03:56 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
“Everything you love will probably be lost, but in the end, love will return in another way.”

Kafka (probably)
PhennommennonnModerator  (OP)
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09/12/2022 03:58 AM

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i wrote this on newsbreak. im the orig author no copyright infringement. i post without compensation or promotion.


where does the love go when the relationship is over?

The story herein is non-fiction; true events that occurred in my life.

Where does the love go when a relationship is over?

Is love just a temporary, quintessential emotion? The best of relationships create tons of passionate electricity, a bonding connection, with laughter and some tears. Then when it's over, often nothing remains but memories. Is love generated from oneself?. Do "we" create a state of mind and feeling from the interactions we have with another person?. Does love abide independent of our own feelings, bodies, chemical reactions, and the situation that creates it?.

The loss of a love, it's one of the most profound types of pain we can feel. One grieves in the same manner as a physical death but it may manifest in other directions. Rejection is an acrimonious bitter pill. There is an anguishing distress in your heart every single time you think about them, or hear a song on the radio, or come across something of a reminder of them. You experienced pinnacles of happiness when you are with them, and now when they leave, you experience a nadir of torment in sadness.

Some couples have demonstrated decades of longevity, i.e. golden anniversaries, and their love remains unyielding. Some have the life-long commitment, but are trapped in a loveless relationship.

Many relationships that I have observed start off as that some kind of wonderful, however once the "honeymoon period" has worn off, the relationship wans and they break up. They tend to move on, and begin new relationships. Some I've seen equate to that of an assembly line, going from one relationship to another.

Was it really love they were experiencing? The definition of love is in essence 'an intense feeling of deep affection or admiration'. It is unconditional, non-judgmental, and selfless.

How can one feel so deeply for another, and then not?

My story began 42 years ago. A man I fell in love with while I was still in high school, was the brother of a good friend. We were together a few years. 1980-83. My parents loved him, and he treated me well. He had bought me a promise ring, with the intent we would marry once he graduated from truck driving school, and me from dental school. One day, I had called him and he wasn't home. I called for a week, and the response was the same. I finally drove to his house, and received the news from his kid brother. The love of my life went to Florida, and nobody knew how to reach him. Needless to say, I was devastated. I had no clue he was going to leave me. The last night we were together was a normal evening for us both. For 36 years I carried this loss with me. My life post 1983 was a void. I lived, I existed but I emotionally was rendered an empty shell.

Meanwhile, I had married twice to men I didn't love, and had 2 children. I have an antiquated belief system, where you only get one great love in a lifetime. There is no past tense in love. I could "love", but not be IN LOVE with someone. That was predominantly the reason why these marriages didn't work. These men knew how I felt pre-marriage.

36 years later he and I met again. His sister needed legal & other assistance with her parents estate at a time when I was visiting my former hometown. He claimed he didn't "remember" why he left me years ago. My heart forgave him and we renewed our relationship. It was the fairy-tale come true. I was finally getting my happy ending. He promised me he would never hurt me again. He promised he would never leave me again. He said the reason he was still single and had never married, was because he was waiting for me all his life. I was 'the one' he said. The way he would look at me, was as if he was looking at me for the very first time. I saw the 'love' in his facial expressions. His eyes reflected the love. *I've since questioned myself; did I see what I wanted to see?

On my birthday he gave me a card which was the most beautiful card I ever read.



The love I feel for him consumed every fiber of my being. I need him to breathe. My life is defined by him. He returned the sentiment, or so I believed. I deduce, when you're IN LOVE, you can "feel" it. Or is that a blind attribute? Disillusionment?

My definition of REAL love is being ridiculous, inconvenient, consuming, can't-live-without-each-other love.

Two months after he gave me that card for my birthday, we were married. It was just us in a small ceremony. It was romantic. I was ecstatic. I was going to grow old with the love of my life. The "perfect" storybook romance. It didn't matter to me that he didn't have "money" (saved). I would have lived in a cardboard box with him. I was proud of him. He had many faults, however I loved him regardless. As long as we had each other, that was the greater rich for me. Love trumps money in my opinion.

By July, a mere 3 months after we were married, it was over as he threw me away. He broke every promise he made to me - again. He was flippant & acted as if we weren't real. What happened? How do you go from professing eternal love and commitment to a "bye, see ya" disposition? I was left with a 3 month marriage & unrequited love. I begged him to provide me with an explanation, however he couldn't break from the constraints of his egocentric mentality.

Has love become disposable?

I was wrecked. He broke me a second time. I'm damaged goods. He emotionally paralyzed me. I should hate him but I an unable. I am a pragmatist, and I cannot come up with an explanation as to why he left me again. He had once questioned my integrity, as to why I married twice and where I admittedly didn't love these men. Here he did the same with me. Was this my karma?

The last 4 years I have beaten myself up, trying to figure out how one could love another one minute, then not love the next. From June of 2016 to July of 2018 I showed him everyday how much I loved him. I did everything to please him.

I ask myself everyday, 'what did I do in my life, that was so horrible, to deserve this?'. I'm a good person, generous/giving, smart, highly intelligent; for age 58 I'm considered good looking, with a head for business & as "bod" for sin. I'm highly respected and have a stellar reputation.

If he called me tomorrow and apologized, in all probability the odds in me taking him back are 100%. I'd rather have 15 minutes of wonderful, than a lifetime of nothing special.

The last 4 years I rose like the phoenix from the ashes, and rebuilt my life. I'm financially stable and spend my time helping people through activism & advocacy. I keep myself busy.

I love him to this day. I remain IN LOVE with him. I cannot date anyone either. I'll never marry again.

My heart will forever be restless, until I know, where does the love go?

In 1993, the band Haddaway asked the world, “What is Love?” I’m not sure if he ever got his answer.

[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

 Quoting: Phennommennonn


I think love stays when the relationship is over - if there is unfinished business or fantasy / projections remaining about the beloved. This guy could could have that precisely cut key you can't fathom anyone else holding. Bigger question is does he feel this way too? If its so strong and eternal for you, how does he feel?

I am sorry for your loss. I think you know that there was nothing wrong with you right? Its hard to step down from that high.... processing or clearing up with closure would be one place the love could go. Also, knowing that not every beings is meant for a long term committed partnership. They might have trauma and intimacy fears that only allow them to be single and have love relationships that feel comfortable. Sometimes you need to look at humans as scared children or wounded rescues. Anyone with inflated ego, ask that question. Are you a wounded animal or scared neglected (or abused) child. It helps.

My best to you,
 Quoting: L'oven

i still talk to his sister. we have an agreement. we dont talk about him. she sometimes slips but i remind her.

Last Edited by Phennommennonn on 09/12/2022 07:26 AM
political correctness is a doctrine.... fostered by a delusional, illogical minority...... and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media; which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 84026375
Hong Kong
09/12/2022 03:58 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
I just read your story. Pretty heartbreaking .Sorry that happened to you.

Also you guys have amazing skin in that pic .(Filters or real? Because wow!)

Also you're quite amazing. May I ask religion and/or Zodiac for you?

And for him??

Asking not to be nosy but some ppl believe in past lives. Have you read Past Lives, Many I forgot the title. (Many lovers?)

Anyway read: You Were Born Again to be Together.

It's an interesting concept that I don't buy, knowing the subconscious agrees with any belief system one holds. But when you said "Karma" I think you hit the nail on the head there.

Perhaps you need to learn your lesson? That lesson, IMHO would be to put yourself first and realize you don't put others, who don't give a crap about you, first. That's emotional suicide.

Be well!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84026375


my zodiasc sasys he n i are soul mates.
im aquarius n hes libra

no filters.

i always put others before myself. im selfless. he wasnt. he hated i volunteered.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


That's really too bad. Sounds like a case of opposites attract (except for the same skin, wow give me your diet tips, LOL!) and you didn't deserve this.

Hope you're able to move on. Truly: it's just a new decision you need to make. I honestly don't know how you were able to marry 2 dudes you didn't care for in the least.

We never really love an individual, we love an ideal type.

To the extent we can project the ideal type onto another, we love them but the projection is fragile and ultimately ephemeral.
 Quoting: Secretizer

This^^^^^
We love the qualities we wish we had. (But not sure what that dude's were, as I can't recall OP mentioning them other than he had many faults) 1dunno1
They do look a lot alike physically. Maybe he has drug problems?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 84028190
Australia
09/12/2022 03:59 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Love is an energy in the universe that never goes away .
 Quoting: Mollzyie


thats me. it doesnt go away. its not infatuation. thats a crap theory. i believe love is eternal.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


Love is not an energy. It can't be measured or transferred.

Love is a subjective feeling. When you stop feeling something, it ceases to exist. When you blow out a candle, the flame doesn't 'go somewhere.' It stops.

You've romanticized the concept of love and made it something unrealistic, which is a recipe for depression. In the past, marriage was primarily transactional, and love was a secondary consideration, if a consideration at all.

For many people, the feeling of love lingers just long enough to produce offspring and get them past nursing.
Funney

User ID: 84171167
Czechia
09/12/2022 04:00 AM

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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Love is the amount of understanding

hf
moral reasoning takes about 250 miliseconds
we make errors in between
perception->relation->behaviour
PhennommennonnModerator  (OP)
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09/12/2022 04:00 AM

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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Love is an energy in the universe that never goes away .
 Quoting: Mollzyie


thats me. it doesnt go away. its not infatuation. thats a crap theory. i believe love is eternal.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


Love is not an energy. It can't be measured or transferred.

Love is a subjective feeling. When you stop feeling something, it ceases to exist. When you blow out a candle, the flame doesn't 'go somewhere.' It stops.

You've romanticized the concept of love and made it something unrealistic, which is a recipe for depression. In the past, marriage was primarily transactional, and love was a secondary consideration, if a consideration at all.

For many people, the feeling of love lingers just long enough to produce offspring and get them past nursing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84028190


yeah but couples do have that longevity where love is lasting.
political correctness is a doctrine.... fostered by a delusional, illogical minority...... and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media; which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
PhennommennonnModerator  (OP)
Forum Administrator

09/12/2022 04:04 AM

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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
I just read your story. Pretty heartbreaking .Sorry that happened to you.

Also you guys have amazing skin in that pic .(Filters or real? Because wow!)

Also you're quite amazing. May I ask religion and/or Zodiac for you?

And for him??

Asking not to be nosy but some ppl believe in past lives. Have you read Past Lives, Many I forgot the title. (Many lovers?)

Anyway read: You Were Born Again to be Together.

It's an interesting concept that I don't buy, knowing the subconscious agrees with any belief system one holds. But when you said "Karma" I think you hit the nail on the head there.

Perhaps you need to learn your lesson? That lesson, IMHO would be to put yourself first and realize you don't put others, who don't give a crap about you, first. That's emotional suicide.

Be well!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84026375


my zodiasc sasys he n i are soul mates.
im aquarius n hes libra

no filters.

i always put others before myself. im selfless. he wasnt. he hated i volunteered.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


That's really too bad. Sounds like a case of opposites attract (except for the same skin, wow give me your diet tips, LOL!) and you didn't deserve this.

Hope you're able to move on. Truly: it's just a new decision you need to make. I honestly don't know how you were able to marry 2 dudes you didn't care for in the least.

We never really love an individual, we love an ideal type.

To the extent we can project the ideal type onto another, we love them but the projection is fragile and ultimately ephemeral.
 Quoting: Secretizer

This^^^^^
We love the qualities we wish we had. (But not sure what that dude's were, as I can't recall OP mentioning them other than he had many faults) 1dunno1
They do look a lot alike physically. Maybe he has drug problems?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84026375


i did leave alotta shit out. i stuck to the matter at hand
]if u wanna know, email me [email protected]

Last Edited by Phennommennonn on 09/12/2022 04:05 AM
political correctness is a doctrine.... fostered by a delusional, illogical minority...... and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media; which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
PhennommennonnModerator  (OP)
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09/12/2022 04:05 AM

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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Love is the amount of understanding

hf
 Quoting: Funney


im a pragmatist so i possess that

Last Edited by Phennommennonn on 09/12/2022 04:05 AM
political correctness is a doctrine.... fostered by a delusional, illogical minority...... and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media; which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 84028190
Australia
09/12/2022 04:07 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Love is an energy in the universe that never goes away .
 Quoting: Mollzyie


thats me. it doesnt go away. its not infatuation. thats a crap theory. i believe love is eternal.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


Love is not an energy. It can't be measured or transferred.

Love is a subjective feeling. When you stop feeling something, it ceases to exist. When you blow out a candle, the flame doesn't 'go somewhere.' It stops.

You've romanticized the concept of love and made it something unrealistic, which is a recipe for depression. In the past, marriage was primarily transactional, and love was a secondary consideration, if a consideration at all.

For many people, the feeling of love lingers just long enough to produce offspring and get them past nursing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84028190


yeah but couples do have that longevity where love is lasting.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


Love exists in the moment you experience it, and doesn't exist when you don't.

You can love someone one moment and hate them the next. Plenty of couples stick together because they have a mutually beneficial relationship. As humans we have an inbuilt requirement for companionship, intimacy, security etc. Just because couples stick together doesn't mean they are constantly floating on clouds, head over heels for each other. They stick together because it works for them. That's all.

In the past, all marriage was arranged. Men had multiple wives if they could afford them.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 84180492
United States
09/12/2022 04:07 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
i wrote this on newsbreak. im the orig author no copyright infringement. i post without compensation or promotion.


where does the love go when the relationship is over?

The story herein is non-fiction; true events that occurred in my life.

Where does the love go when a relationship is over?

Is love just a temporary, quintessential emotion? The best of relationships create tons of passionate electricity, a bonding connection, with laughter and some tears. Then when it's over, often nothing remains but memories. Is love generated from oneself?. Do "we" create a state of mind and feeling from the interactions we have with another person?. Does love abide independent of our own feelings, bodies, chemical reactions, and the situation that creates it?.

The loss of a love, it's one of the most profound types of pain we can feel. One grieves in the same manner as a physical death but it may manifest in other directions. Rejection is an acrimonious bitter pill. There is an anguishing distress in your heart every single time you think about them, or hear a song on the radio, or come across something of a reminder of them. You experienced pinnacles of happiness when you are with them, and now when they leave, you experience a nadir of torment in sadness.

Some couples have demonstrated decades of longevity, i.e. golden anniversaries, and their love remains unyielding. Some have the life-long commitment, but are trapped in a loveless relationship.

Many relationships that I have observed start off as that some kind of wonderful, however once the "honeymoon period" has worn off, the relationship wans and they break up. They tend to move on, and begin new relationships. Some I've seen equate to that of an assembly line, going from one relationship to another.

Was it really love they were experiencing? The definition of love is in essence 'an intense feeling of deep affection or admiration'. It is unconditional, non-judgmental, and selfless.

How can one feel so deeply for another, and then not?

My story began 42 years ago. A man I fell in love with while I was still in high school, was the brother of a good friend. We were together a few years. 1980-83. My parents loved him, and he treated me well. He had bought me a promise ring, with the intent we would marry once he graduated from truck driving school, and me from dental school. One day, I had called him and he wasn't home. I called for a week, and the response was the same. I finally drove to his house, and received the news from his kid brother. The love of my life went to Florida, and nobody knew how to reach him. Needless to say, I was devastated. I had no clue he was going to leave me. The last night we were together was a normal evening for us both. For 36 years I carried this loss with me. My life post 1983 was a void. I lived, I existed but I emotionally was rendered an empty shell.

Meanwhile, I had married twice to men I didn't love, and had 2 children. I have an antiquated belief system, where you only get one great love in a lifetime. There is no past tense in love. I could "love", but not be IN LOVE with someone. That was predominantly the reason why these marriages didn't work. These men knew how I felt pre-marriage.

36 years later he and I met again. His sister needed legal & other assistance with her parents estate at a time when I was visiting my former hometown. He claimed he didn't "remember" why he left me years ago. My heart forgave him and we renewed our relationship. It was the fairy-tale come true. I was finally getting my happy ending. He promised me he would never hurt me again. He promised he would never leave me again. He said the reason he was still single and had never married, was because he was waiting for me all his life. I was 'the one' he said. The way he would look at me, was as if he was looking at me for the very first time. I saw the 'love' in his facial expressions. His eyes reflected the love. *I've since questioned myself; did I see what I wanted to see?

On my birthday he gave me a card which was the most beautiful card I ever read.



The love I feel for him consumed every fiber of my being. I need him to breathe. My life is defined by him. He returned the sentiment, or so I believed. I deduce, when you're IN LOVE, you can "feel" it. Or is that a blind attribute? Disillusionment?

My definition of REAL love is being ridiculous, inconvenient, consuming, can't-live-without-each-other love.

Two months after he gave me that card for my birthday, we were married. It was just us in a small ceremony. It was romantic. I was ecstatic. I was going to grow old with the love of my life. The "perfect" storybook romance. It didn't matter to me that he didn't have "money" (saved). I would have lived in a cardboard box with him. I was proud of him. He had many faults, however I loved him regardless. As long as we had each other, that was the greater rich for me. Love trumps money in my opinion.

By July, a mere 3 months after we were married, it was over as he threw me away. He broke every promise he made to me - again. He was flippant & acted as if we weren't real. What happened? How do you go from professing eternal love and commitment to a "bye, see ya" disposition? I was left with a 3 month marriage & unrequited love. I begged him to provide me with an explanation, however he couldn't break from the constraints of his egocentric mentality.

Has love become disposable?

I was wrecked. He broke me a second time. I'm damaged goods. He emotionally paralyzed me. I should hate him but I an unable. I am a pragmatist, and I cannot come up with an explanation as to why he left me again. He had once questioned my integrity, as to why I married twice and where I admittedly didn't love these men. Here he did the same with me. Was this my karma?

The last 4 years I have beaten myself up, trying to figure out how one could love another one minute, then not love the next. From June of 2016 to July of 2018 I showed him everyday how much I loved him. I did everything to please him.

I ask myself everyday, 'what did I do in my life, that was so horrible, to deserve this?'. I'm a good person, generous/giving, smart, highly intelligent; for age 58 I'm considered good looking, with a head for business & as "bod" for sin. I'm highly respected and have a stellar reputation.

If he called me tomorrow and apologized, in all probability the odds in me taking him back are 100%. I'd rather have 15 minutes of wonderful, than a lifetime of nothing special.

The last 4 years I rose like the phoenix from the ashes, and rebuilt my life. I'm financially stable and spend my time helping people through activism & advocacy. I keep myself busy.

I love him to this day. I remain IN LOVE with him. I cannot date anyone either. I'll never marry again.

My heart will forever be restless, until I know, where does the love go?

In 1993, the band Haddaway asked the world, “What is Love?” I’m not sure if he ever got his answer.

[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

 Quoting: Phennommennonn


Being IN LOVE is a deep and almost indestructible connection. We all love all of the people close to us in life. Being IN LOVE is something that stays with you until something occurs that is strong enough to vaporize it. Being "in love" with someone is a phenomena that is far beyond infatuation. It is something within the soul that latches on, whether or not the other party feels the same.

I guess the simplest way to put it, at the time he literally checked all the boxes for you emotionally.

The good news is, he aint the only fish in the sea.

Last Edited by Phennommennonn on 09/12/2022 07:27 AM
Anonymous Coward
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Sweden
09/12/2022 04:09 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Love is Love when you still can stand each other through all 4 seasons.
Lazy Monk

User ID: 77843466
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09/12/2022 04:10 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
...


That's called infatuation. It wears out. It must, because humans aren't capable of sustaining an intense emotional high indefinitely.

REAL love is something that develops over time. It starts to build the first time you get really sick of his or her ways, but somehow decide to stick to it anyway. It keeps building every time you make up after a fight. It picks up momentum when you start to dodge fights in the first place.

In the end, to "love" is to accept someone unconditionally.

Ans that is a hard thing to do, because people are fucking annoying! We all are. You are. And the person you are infatuated with certainly is annoying as all fuck too!

When the infatuation wears off, you're hit by a double whammy: First, you lose your chemical high from infatuation endorphins (and get hit by withdrawal!). And second, you suddenly get hit with the full realization of how fucking annoying he or she really is!

Some people break up at this point, thinking this person was the wrong choice, and the next infatuation with someone else will prove to be "the One".

That's a losing game, because the next person is guaranteed to be just as annoying, and your infatuation will wear off the next time too.

But if both of you decide to forgive each other for being the annoying self-serving assholes we all are, then the work of building a relationship based on REAL love can begin. And have no doubt about it, it IS hard work!

I've been "happily married" for 30+ years. My wife is without a doubt the most annoying person I know! I delight every time she leaves the house so I can have some peace and quiet, because I swear she can't think a thought without it having to come out her mouth...

But she is also the most wonderful person I know, and if I hadn't decided to accept her fully and unconditionally, I would never have known who she truly is.

That's the price you win by putting in the work. You get as close to someone as a human being is capable of. And by constantly denying your desire to say or even think "screw it, I'm not going to take his/her bullshit anymore!", you achieve a little spiritual growth too. Your ego diminishes a wee bit, and you become a slightly better person.

It's actually worth it.

In the end, my only regret with my marriage, is that I didn't love her more right from the beginning! The old me remembers how the young me was incapable of loving her the way I do now, and it's a shame really. The wonderful young woman she was deserved to be loved more, but it took me a couple of decades to learn how to do it.
 Quoting: Lazy Monk


thats the polar opposite of how i feel. mine is unconditional. acceptance. pure. genuine
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


Your reading comprehension is atrocious. I was literally saying that love is unconditional acceptance.
 Quoting: Lazy Monk


and if you wouldve read my OP thats what i said
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


No, what you said in your OP, is that you are having an on-again-off-again relationship with a man who will repeatedly drop you the moment his infatuation with you wears off. This man is clearly NOT willing and able to put in the work to start building a relationship. And you can't do it unless both are doing it. So you will NEVER have a full relationship with this man. It's not up to you, he has shown he isn't relationship material, repeatedly.

And yet you will NOT give someone else a chance because, and I cite you:

"I'd rather have 15 minutes of wonderful, than a lifetime of nothing special."

In other words, you are stuck on infatuation. You crave the chemical endorphin high you experienced with this man. You do not want anything else.

But you think this is "REAL love" simply because he has a habit of breaking up with you before your infatuation wears off. His endorphins wear out faster than yours, so every time he leaves you are still "in love".

"15 minutes of wonderful" = infatuation

"a lifetime of nothing special" = REAL love

This is reality. You may not wish to admit to it because you are invested in defending your life such as it turned out. But it's still the reality whether you like it or not.
Lazy Monk
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09/12/2022 04:10 AM

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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

political correctness is a doctrine.... fostered by a delusional, illogical minority...... and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media; which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Anonymous Coward
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09/12/2022 04:12 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Love is Love when you still can stand each other through all 4 seasons.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84180746


What about death threats? Are those a dealbreaker to you?
PhennommennonnModerator  (OP)
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09/12/2022 04:13 AM

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...


thats the polar opposite of how i feel. mine is unconditional. acceptance. pure. genuine
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


Your reading comprehension is atrocious. I was literally saying that love is unconditional acceptance.
 Quoting: Lazy Monk


and if you wouldve read my OP thats what i said
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


No, what you said in your OP, is that you are having an on-again-off-again relationship with a man who will repeatedly drop you the moment his infatuation with you wears off. This man is clearly NOT willing and able to put in the work to start building a relationship. And you can't do it unless both are doing it. So you will NEVER have a full relationship with this man. It's not up to you, he has shown he isn't relationship material, repeatedly.

And yet you will NOT give someone else a chance because, and I cite you:

"I'd rather have 15 minutes of wonderful, than a lifetime of nothing special."

In other words, you are stuck on infatuation. You crave the chemical endorphin high you experienced with this man. You do not want anything else.

But you think this is "REAL love" simply because he has a habit of breaking up with you before your infatuation wears off. His endorphins wear out faster than yours, so every time he leaves you are still "in love".

"15 minutes of wonderful" = infatuation

"a lifetime of nothing special" = REAL love

This is reality. You may not wish to admit to it because you are invested in defending your life such as it turned out. But it's still the reality whether you like it or not.
 Quoting: Lazy Monk


thats just an anecdotal. not infatuation. no way defined as.

what i have is my definition of love. genuine. whole. eternal.

that might define him but not me.
political correctness is a doctrine.... fostered by a delusional, illogical minority...... and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media; which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Anonymous Coward
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Hong Kong
09/12/2022 04:14 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
IAnother great book is "Is it Love or is it Addiction".

That is, if you're willing to get help, OP.

It's not natural for you to wish to remain in emotional pain

Do you have ANYTHING you feel guilty about?? That guilt within you will surely draw such an experience as with this man.

Also I read his card: you do realize that this was manipulation? (Sorry but facts) He didn't write it: he bought it and scribbled "words say it all", typical of someone who doesn't want to spend ANY energy into emotional sharing or showing they care in their own words...because he did not (you know this).
Sol-tari

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09/12/2022 04:14 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
...


thats the polar opposite of how i feel. mine is unconditional. acceptance. pure. genuine
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


Your reading comprehension is atrocious. I was literally saying that love is unconditional acceptance.
 Quoting: Lazy Monk


and if you wouldve read my OP thats what i said
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


No, what you said in your OP, is that you are having an on-again-off-again relationship with a man who will repeatedly drop you the moment his infatuation with you wears off. This man is clearly NOT willing and able to put in the work to start building a relationship. And you can't do it unless both are doing it. So you will NEVER have a full relationship with this man. It's not up to you, he has shown he isn't relationship material, repeatedly.

And yet you will NOT give someone else a chance because, and I cite you:

"I'd rather have 15 minutes of wonderful, than a lifetime of nothing special."

In other words, you are stuck on infatuation. You crave the chemical endorphin high you experienced with this man. You do not want anything else.

But you think this is "REAL love" simply because he has a habit of breaking up with you before your infatuation wears off. His endorphins wear out faster than yours, so every time he leaves you are still "in love".

"15 minutes of wonderful" = infatuation

"a lifetime of nothing special" = REAL love

This is reality. You may not wish to admit to it because you are invested in defending your life such as it turned out. But it's still the reality whether you like it or not.
 Quoting: Lazy Monk





*Glitches May Occur. Consume(D) At Own Risk
PhennommennonnModerator  (OP)
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09/12/2022 04:14 AM

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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Love is Love when you still can stand each other through all 4 seasons.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84180746


What about death threats? Are those a dealbreaker to you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76817319


holy shit. when guys do that to women re domestic violence...i dunno wtf that be defined as but thats dangerous.

ive seen guys do this, and they do kill bc their women left them.
political correctness is a doctrine.... fostered by a delusional, illogical minority...... and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media; which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Anonymous Coward
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09/12/2022 04:15 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Love is Love when you still can stand each other through all 4 seasons.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84180746


What about death threats? Are those a dealbreaker to you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76817319


Love often turns to hate. THat should answr teh philosophical title Q. Same energy, polar opposits!
Anonymous Coward
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United States
09/12/2022 04:18 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Love is Love when you still can stand each other through all 4 seasons.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84180746


What about death threats? Are those a dealbreaker to you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76817319


Love often turns to hate. THat should answr teh philosophical title Q. Same energy, polar opposits!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84026375


Sounds to me like two sides of the same desire to possess. Some people never change. Hell, some *peoples* never change.
PhennommennonnModerator  (OP)
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09/12/2022 04:20 AM

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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
IAnother great book is "Is it Love or is it Addiction".

That is, if you're willing to get help, OP.

It's not natural for you to wish to remain in emotional pain

Do you have ANYTHING you feel guilty about?? That guilt within you will surely draw such an experience as with this man.

Also I read his card: you do realize that this was manipulation? (Sorry but facts) He didn't write it: he bought it and scribbled "words say it all", typical of someone who doesn't want to spend ANY energy into emotional sharing or showing they care in their own words...because he did not (you know this).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84026375


im not as card person. i write my own shit. i give ppl blank cards n write my own.

i felt this was the most beautiful card ever.

he fits the label of as narcissist bc his mother gave him attn bc his bio father left them n she remarried he abandoned gary n then gave him to his grandparents. so he did have issues. but they raised him well. he was never not loved.

my SIL said he had abandonment issues. but i nvr abandoned him he did the abandonment.

she regrets askn me to help her in 16.
political correctness is a doctrine.... fostered by a delusional, illogical minority...... and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media; which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
L'oven

User ID: 83708949
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09/12/2022 04:20 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
i wrote this on newsbreak. im the orig author no copyright infringement. i post without compensation or promotion.



where does the love go when the relationship is over?

The story herein is non-fiction; true events that occurred in my life.

Where does the love go when a relationship is over?

Is love just a temporary, quintessential emotion? The best of relationships create tons of passionate electricity, a bonding connection, with laughter and some tears. Then when it's over, often nothing remains but memories. Is love generated from oneself?. Do "we" create a state of mind and feeling from the interactions we have with another person?. Does love abide independent of our own feelings, bodies, chemical reactions, and the situation that creates it?.

The loss of a love, it's one of the most profound types of pain we can feel. One grieves in the same manner as a physical death but it may manifest in other directions. Rejection is an acrimonious bitter pill. There is an anguishing distress in your heart every single time you think about them, or hear a song on the radio, or come across something of a reminder of them. You experienced pinnacles of happiness when you are with them, and now when they leave, you experience a nadir of torment in sadness.

Some couples have demonstrated decades of longevity, i.e. golden anniversaries, and their love remains unyielding. Some have the life-long commitment, but are trapped in a loveless relationship.

Many relationships that I have observed start off as that some kind of wonderful, however once the "honeymoon period" has worn off, the relationship wans and they break up. They tend to move on, and begin new relationships. Some I've seen equate to that of an assembly line, going from one relationship to another.

Was it really love they were experiencing? The definition of love is in essence 'an intense feeling of deep affection or admiration'. It is unconditional, non-judgmental, and selfless.

How can one feel so deeply for another, and then not?

My story began 42 years ago. A man I fell in love with while I was still in high school, was the brother of a good friend. We were together a few years. 1980-83. My parents loved him, and he treated me well. He had bought me a promise ring, with the intent we would marry once he graduated from truck driving school, and me from dental school. One day, I had called him and he wasn't home. I called for a week, and the response was the same. I finally drove to his house, and received the news from his kid brother. The love of my life went to Florida, and nobody knew how to reach him. Needless to say, I was devastated. I had no clue he was going to leave me. The last night we were together was a normal evening for us both. For 36 years I carried this loss with me. My life post 1983 was a void. I lived, I existed but I emotionally was rendered an empty shell.

Meanwhile, I had married twice to men I didn't love, and had 2 children. I have an antiquated belief system, where you only get one great love in a lifetime. There is no past tense in love. I could "love", but not be IN LOVE with someone. That was predominantly the reason why these marriages didn't work. These men knew how I felt pre-marriage.

36 years later he and I met again. His sister needed legal & other assistance with her parents estate at a time when I was visiting my former hometown. He claimed he didn't "remember" why he left me years ago. My heart forgave him and we renewed our relationship. It was the fairy-tale come true. I was finally getting my happy ending. He promised me he would never hurt me again. He promised he would never leave me again. He said the reason he was still single and had never married, was because he was waiting for me all his life. I was 'the one' he said. The way he would look at me, was as if he was looking at me for the very first time. I saw the 'love' in his facial expressions. His eyes reflected the love. *I've since questioned myself; did I see what I wanted to see?

On my birthday he gave me a card which was the most beautiful card I ever read.



The love I feel for him consumed every fiber of my being. I need him to breathe. My life is defined by him. He returned the sentiment, or so I believed. I deduce, when you're IN LOVE, you can "feel" it. Or is that a blind attribute? Disillusionment?

My definition of REAL love is being ridiculous, inconvenient, consuming, can't-live-without-each-other love.

Two months after he gave me that card for my birthday, we were married. It was just us in a small ceremony. It was romantic. I was ecstatic. I was going to grow old with the love of my life. The "perfect" storybook romance. It didn't matter to me that he didn't have "money" (saved). I would have lived in a cardboard box with him. I was proud of him. He had many faults, however I loved him regardless. As long as we had each other, that was the greater rich for me. Love trumps money in my opinion.

By July, a mere 3 months after we were married, it was over as he threw me away. He broke every promise he made to me - again. He was flippant & acted as if we weren't real. What happened? How do you go from professing eternal love and commitment to a "bye, see ya" disposition? I was left with a 3 month marriage & unrequited love. I begged him to provide me with an explanation, however he couldn't break from the constraints of his egocentric mentality.

Has love become disposable?

I was wrecked. He broke me a second time. I'm damaged goods. He emotionally paralyzed me. I should hate him but I an unable. I am a pragmatist, and I cannot come up with an explanation as to why he left me again. He had once questioned my integrity, as to why I married twice and where I admittedly didn't love these men. Here he did the same with me. Was this my karma?

The last 4 years I have beaten myself up, trying to figure out how one could love another one minute, then not love the next. From June of 2016 to July of 2018 I showed him everyday how much I loved him. I did everything to please him.

I ask myself everyday, 'what did I do in my life, that was so horrible, to deserve this?'. I'm a good person, generous/giving, smart, highly intelligent; for age 58 I'm considered good looking, with a head for business & as "bod" for sin. I'm highly respected and have a stellar reputation.

If he called me tomorrow and apologized, in all probability the odds in me taking him back are 100%. I'd rather have 15 minutes of wonderful, than a lifetime of nothing special.

The last 4 years I rose like the phoenix from the ashes, and rebuilt my life. I'm financially stable and spend my time helping people through activism & advocacy. I keep myself busy.

I love him to this day. I remain IN LOVE with him. I cannot date anyone either. I'll never marry again.

My heart will forever be restless, until I know, where does the love go?

In 1993, the band Haddaway asked the world, “What is Love?” I’m not sure if he ever got his answer.

[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

 Quoting: Phennommennonn


I think love stays when the relationship is over - if there is unfinished business or fantasy / projections remaining about the beloved. This guy could could have that precisely cut key you can't fathom anyone else holding. Bigger question is does he feel this way too? If its so strong and eternal for you, how does he feel?

I am sorry for your loss. I think you know that there was nothing wrong with you right? Its hard to step down from that high.... processing or clearing up with closure would be one place the love could go. Also, knowing that not every beings is meant for a long term committed partnership. They might have trauma and intimacy fears that only allow them to be single and have love relationships that feel comfortable. Sometimes you need to look at humans as scared children or wounded rescues. Anyone with inflated ego, ask that question. Are you a wounded animal or scared neglected (or abused) child. It helps.

My best to you,
 Quoting: L'oven

i still talk to his sister. we have an agreement. we dont talk about him. she sometimes slips but i remind her.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


Ohhh I would be asking her some questions for sure. She would know him well being a sib. But I understand having boundaries too...

Last Edited by Phennommennonn on 09/12/2022 07:27 AM
L'oven
PhennommennonnModerator  (OP)
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09/12/2022 04:21 AM

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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Love is Love when you still can stand each other through all 4 seasons.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84180746


What about death threats? Are those a dealbreaker to you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76817319


Love often turns to hate. THat should answr teh philosophical title Q. Same energy, polar opposits!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84026375


there was no hate here
political correctness is a doctrine.... fostered by a delusional, illogical minority...... and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media; which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
PhennommennonnModerator  (OP)
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09/12/2022 04:23 AM

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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
i wrote this on newsbreak. im the orig author no copyright infringement. i post without compensation or promotion.


where does the love go when the relationship is over?

The story herein is non-fiction; true events that occurred in my life.

Where does the love go when a relationship is over?

Is love just a temporary, quintessential emotion? The best of relationships create tons of passionate electricity, a bonding connection, with laughter and some tears. Then when it's over, often nothing remains but memories. Is love generated from oneself?. Do "we" create a state of mind and feeling from the interactions we have with another person?. Does love abide independent of our own feelings, bodies, chemical reactions, and the situation that creates it?.

The loss of a love, it's one of the most profound types of pain we can feel. One grieves in the same manner as a physical death but it may manifest in other directions. Rejection is an acrimonious bitter pill. There is an anguishing distress in your heart every single time you think about them, or hear a song on the radio, or come across something of a reminder of them. You experienced pinnacles of happiness when you are with them, and now when they leave, you experience a nadir of torment in sadness.

Some couples have demonstrated decades of longevity, i.e. golden anniversaries, and their love remains unyielding. Some have the life-long commitment, but are trapped in a loveless relationship.

Many relationships that I have observed start off as that some kind of wonderful, however once the "honeymoon period" has worn off, the relationship wans and they break up. They tend to move on, and begin new relationships. Some I've seen equate to that of an assembly line, going from one relationship to another.

Was it really love they were experiencing? The definition of love is in essence 'an intense feeling of deep affection or admiration'. It is unconditional, non-judgmental, and selfless.

How can one feel so deeply for another, and then not?

My story began 42 years ago. A man I fell in love with while I was still in high school, was the brother of a good friend. We were together a few years. 1980-83. My parents loved him, and he treated me well. He had bought me a promise ring, with the intent we would marry once he graduated from truck driving school, and me from dental school. One day, I had called him and he wasn't home. I called for a week, and the response was the same. I finally drove to his house, and received the news from his kid brother. The love of my life went to Florida, and nobody knew how to reach him. Needless to say, I was devastated. I had no clue he was going to leave me. The last night we were together was a normal evening for us both. For 36 years I carried this loss with me. My life post 1983 was a void. I lived, I existed but I emotionally was rendered an empty shell.

Meanwhile, I had married twice to men I didn't love, and had 2 children. I have an antiquated belief system, where you only get one great love in a lifetime. There is no past tense in love. I could "love", but not be IN LOVE with someone. That was predominantly the reason why these marriages didn't work. These men knew how I felt pre-marriage.

36 years later he and I met again. His sister needed legal & other assistance with her parents estate at a time when I was visiting my former hometown. He claimed he didn't "remember" why he left me years ago. My heart forgave him and we renewed our relationship. It was the fairy-tale come true. I was finally getting my happy ending. He promised me he would never hurt me again. He promised he would never leave me again. He said the reason he was still single and had never married, was because he was waiting for me all his life. I was 'the one' he said. The way he would look at me, was as if he was looking at me for the very first time. I saw the 'love' in his facial expressions. His eyes reflected the love. *I've since questioned myself; did I see what I wanted to see?

On my birthday he gave me a card which was the most beautiful card I ever read.



The love I feel for him consumed every fiber of my being. I need him to breathe. My life is defined by him. He returned the sentiment, or so I believed. I deduce, when you're IN LOVE, you can "feel" it. Or is that a blind attribute? Disillusionment?

My definition of REAL love is being ridiculous, inconvenient, consuming, can't-live-without-each-other love.

Two months after he gave me that card for my birthday, we were married. It was just us in a small ceremony. It was romantic. I was ecstatic. I was going to grow old with the love of my life. The "perfect" storybook romance. It didn't matter to me that he didn't have "money" (saved). I would have lived in a cardboard box with him. I was proud of him. He had many faults, however I loved him regardless. As long as we had each other, that was the greater rich for me. Love trumps money in my opinion.

By July, a mere 3 months after we were married, it was over as he threw me away. He broke every promise he made to me - again. He was flippant & acted as if we weren't real. What happened? How do you go from professing eternal love and commitment to a "bye, see ya" disposition? I was left with a 3 month marriage & unrequited love. I begged him to provide me with an explanation, however he couldn't break from the constraints of his egocentric mentality.

Has love become disposable?

I was wrecked. He broke me a second time. I'm damaged goods. He emotionally paralyzed me. I should hate him but I an unable. I am a pragmatist, and I cannot come up with an explanation as to why he left me again. He had once questioned my integrity, as to why I married twice and where I admittedly didn't love these men. Here he did the same with me. Was this my karma?

The last 4 years I have beaten myself up, trying to figure out how one could love another one minute, then not love the next. From June of 2016 to July of 2018 I showed him everyday how much I loved him. I did everything to please him.

I ask myself everyday, 'what did I do in my life, that was so horrible, to deserve this?'. I'm a good person, generous/giving, smart, highly intelligent; for age 58 I'm considered good looking, with a head for business & as "bod" for sin. I'm highly respected and have a stellar reputation.

If he called me tomorrow and apologized, in all probability the odds in me taking him back are 100%. I'd rather have 15 minutes of wonderful, than a lifetime of nothing special.

The last 4 years I rose like the phoenix from the ashes, and rebuilt my life. I'm financially stable and spend my time helping people through activism & advocacy. I keep myself busy.

I love him to this day. I remain IN LOVE with him. I cannot date anyone either. I'll never marry again.

My heart will forever be restless, until I know, where does the love go?

In 1993, the band Haddaway asked the world, “What is Love?” I’m not sure if he ever got his answer.

[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

 Quoting: Phennommennonn


I think love stays when the relationship is over - if there is unfinished business or fantasy / projections remaining about the beloved. This guy could could have that precisely cut key you can't fathom anyone else holding. Bigger question is does he feel this way too? If its so strong and eternal for you, how does he feel?

I am sorry for your loss. I think you know that there was nothing wrong with you right? Its hard to step down from that high.... processing or clearing up with closure would be one place the love could go. Also, knowing that not every beings is meant for a long term committed partnership. They might have trauma and intimacy fears that only allow them to be single and have love relationships that feel comfortable. Sometimes you need to look at humans as scared children or wounded rescues. Anyone with inflated ego, ask that question. Are you a wounded animal or scared neglected (or abused) child. It helps.

My best to you,
 Quoting: L'oven

i still talk to his sister. we have an agreement. we dont talk about him. she sometimes slips but i remind her.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


Ohhh I would be asking her some questions for sure. She would know him well being a sib. But I understand having boundaries too...
 Quoting: L'oven


i did and it was traumatic. she gave me this line of shit that he left bc he loved me to much. he wasnt financially set n coulnt provide for me as long island is to expensive. but that excuse didnt work for me. i dont buy it. that was never an issue with us.

Last Edited by Phennommennonn on 09/12/2022 07:27 AM
political correctness is a doctrine.... fostered by a delusional, illogical minority...... and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media; which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
PhennommennonnModerator  (OP)
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09/12/2022 04:24 AM

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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Love is Love when you still can stand each other through all 4 seasons.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84180746


What about death threats? Are those a dealbreaker to you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76817319


Love often turns to hate. THat should answr teh philosophical title Q. Same energy, polar opposits!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84026375


Sounds to me like two sides of the same desire to possess. Some people never change. Hell, some *peoples* never change.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76817319


that may apply to some
political correctness is a doctrine.... fostered by a delusional, illogical minority...... and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media; which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 11798990
Ireland
09/12/2022 04:28 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Thread: Magic Man (Page 7)

Dame

User ID: 77881046
United States
09/12/2022 04:32 AM

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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Oh Phen I’m so sorry. You are brave to share your heartbreak

I too have recently struggled to carry on after being discarded. This December it will be 41 years since we first met.

I do believe we are here to learn certain lessons. I’ve come to realize this man taught me what true love is by showing me what love is not. It’s been a devastating lesson.

This man saw something in you he could exploit for his own narcissistic needs. He is an empty man and wanted your light.

I’ve followed your posts for years and I also follow you on Tel____, you are a powerful woman and have an empathy that’s rare. Once you get through this, no telling what influence you will have in this world.

God did not bring you this far without a reason

It does seem as if narcissism is rampant these days. The way I figure it, what better way for the darkness to suppress the light.

Learn all you can about narcissistic behavior and surround yourself with people who support you.

You know how to love, he didn’t
Anonymous Coward
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United States
09/12/2022 04:35 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
Oh Phen I’m so sorry. You are brave to share your heartbreak

I too have recently struggled to carry on after being discarded. This December it will be 41 years since we first met.

I do believe we are here to learn certain lessons. I’ve come to realize this man taught me what true love is by showing me what love is not. It’s been a devastating lesson.

This man saw something in you he could exploit for his own narcissistic needs. He is an empty man and wanted your light.

I’ve followed your posts for years and I also follow you on Tel____, you are a powerful woman and have an empathy that’s rare. Once you get through this, no telling what influence you will have in this world.

God did not bring you this far without a reason

It does seem as if narcissism is rampant these days. The way I figure it, what better way for the darkness to suppress the light.

Learn all you can about narcissistic behavior and surround yourself with people who support you.

You know how to love, he didn’t
 Quoting: Dame


I once went to a private school that knew I was being abused and cut me loose, writing a check to my mother for three hundred dollars. That's what their 'love' is. Funny, it seemed that money was a buy out of obligation, and yet when they need something--there they are. That's not love, nor could it ever be.
Dame

User ID: 77881046
United States
09/12/2022 04:36 AM

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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
I started my healing by watching these channels




Anonymous Coward
User ID: 84026375
Hong Kong
09/12/2022 04:37 AM
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Re: Where does the love go when a relationship is over?
IAnother great book is "Is it Love or is it Addiction".

That is, if you're willing to get help, OP.

It's not natural for you to wish to remain in emotional pain

Do you have ANYTHING you feel guilty about?? That guilt within you will surely draw such an experience as with this man.

Also I read his card: you do realize that this was manipulation? (Sorry but facts) He didn't write it: he bought it and scribbled "words say it all", typical of someone who doesn't want to spend ANY energy into emotional sharing or showing they care in their own words...because he did not (you know this).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84026375


im not as card person. i write my own shit. i give ppl blank cards n write my own.

i felt this was the most beautiful card ever.

he fits the label of as narcissist bc his mother gave him attn bc his bio father left them n she remarried he abandoned gary n then gave him to his grandparents. so he did have issues. but they raised him well. he was never not loved.

my SIL said he had abandonment issues. but i nvr abandoned him he did the abandonment.

she regrets askn me to help her in 16.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn
|
WHOA!!! Phenn:

Surely you must KNOW know this?? He is a WRITER of books and also writes greeting cards for Blue Mountain Arts??

Wtf?? I just googled him. It's his face in the pix.





GLP