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•• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !

 
UTownReturns

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08/11/2022 06:17 PM
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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Does anyone have a list of what countries don’t have mpox at this point?
 Quoting: UTownReturns


The 71 countries that Homosexuality is a crime in have not reported any cases. Other than that I don't think anyone here is keeping track of it.
 Quoting: BBQ BOY™


Thank you
All Wrongs Reversed.
BBQ BOY™

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08/11/2022 06:58 PM
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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Does anyone have a list of what countries don’t have mpox at this point?
 Quoting: UTownReturns


The 71 countries that Homosexuality is a crime in have not reported any cases. Other than that I don't think anyone here is keeping track of it.
 Quoting: BBQ BOY™


Thank you
 Quoting: UTownReturns


There is a complete list of countries that do have case's about half way down this page.

[link to www.monkeypoxmeter.com (secure)]
"Never underestimate the pain of a person. In all honesty, everyone is struggling. Just some people are better at hiding it than others."

Everyone has to work out their own salvation.

Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards.
dyin

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08/11/2022 10:37 PM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !


Anita Patel MD
-AnitaKPatelMD
1/ On vacation: called florida department of health to attempt to get my 70+ in laws post exposure monkey pox after we discovered a close contact had monkey pox. Their response: “the infected individual can not have monkey pox because she is a heterosexual woman.”

burnit burnit burnit
Truth never damages a cause that is just
Anonymous Coward
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08/11/2022 10:55 PM
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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !


Anita Patel MD
-AnitaKPatelMD
1/ On vacation: called florida department of health to attempt to get my 70+ in laws post exposure monkey pox after we discovered a close contact had monkey pox. Their response: “the infected individual can not have monkey pox because she is a heterosexual woman.”

burnit burnit burnit
 Quoting: dyin


That is just so scary that the Florida department of health is that stupid.
JAZZz50

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08/12/2022 12:25 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
if u read that again, u'll see the problem. it is this shot she can't have. appears they are testing this version of vax for HIV ppl.

health depts are ,like doctors, paper pushers for the CDC and govern.
JAZZZ50

2020 The SHTF literally as TP ran out.

we went from being over the target, to actually being the target. too close to the truth.


if i had a dollar for everytime someone says "merge" without using the word, i'd b so green i'd b King of Mars.
ParamedicUK  (OP)

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08/12/2022 05:10 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
 Quoting: BBQ BOY™


Not expanding for me BBQ



Last Edited by ParamedicUK on 08/12/2022 05:11 AM
Herd immunity and vaccine free is the only way……

Peace not War.
Anonymous Coward
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08/12/2022 07:08 AM
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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Regardless of your sexuality, it's time to start keeping your hands in your pockets when in shared public spaces...I believe this one stays 'alive' on surfaces for a while.

Off the top of my head...


Peanuts bowls on bars
Door handles on public toilets
Handrails on stairs
The glass the restaurant waiter brings you and puts down on your table with his buttfingering hand


I'm sure you can think of a few more but you get the point.

If you grab that butterfingered glass you might as well just rub your hands over the waiters 9enis.

Then there is the natural tendency for your hand to touch your own mouth. It's like an automatic response unless you consciously work on stopping yourself from doing it.

If your putting your mouth to the edge of the glass that buttginfer has touched you might as well have his 9enis in your mouth

Watch yourselves out there. It's getting crazy
ParamedicUK  (OP)

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08/12/2022 07:32 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !



Herd immunity and vaccine free is the only way……

Peace not War.
ParamedicUK  (OP)

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08/12/2022 07:44 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Evidence of human-to-dog transmission of monkeypox virus.

The lancet 10th August 2022

[link to www.thelancet.com (secure)]

Whether domesticated cats and dogs could be a vector for monkeypox virus is unknown. Here we describe the first case of a dog with confirmed monkeypox virus infection that might have been acquired through human transmission.

Our findings should prompt debate on the need to isolate pets from monkeypox virus-positive individuals. We call for further investigation on secondary transmissions via pets.

UK Keep Calm Sma

Last Edited by ParamedicUK on 08/12/2022 07:46 AM
Herd immunity and vaccine free is the only way……

Peace not War.
ParamedicUK  (OP)

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08/12/2022 07:47 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
BBQ - beat you to it ^^^

Last Edited by ParamedicUK on 08/12/2022 07:47 AM
Herd immunity and vaccine free is the only way……

Peace not War.
JAZZz50

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08/12/2022 08:56 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Regardless of your sexuality, it's time to start keeping your hands in your pockets when in shared public spaces...I believe this one stays 'alive' on surfaces for a while.

Off the top of my head...


Peanuts bowls on bars
Door handles on public toilets
Handrails on stairs
The glass the restaurant waiter brings you and puts down on your table with his buttfingering hand


I'm sure you can think of a few more but you get the point.

If you grab that butterfingered glass you might as well just rub your hands over the waiters 9enis.

Then there is the natural tendency for your hand to touch your own mouth. It's like an automatic response unless you consciously work on stopping yourself from doing it.

If your putting your mouth to the edge of the glass that buttginfer has touched you might as well have his 9enis in your mouth

Watch yourselves out there. It's getting crazy
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 71360426


in some places, that is already the case. ppl don't want to see it or acknowldge it ,but u are correct. walking thru stores and touching stuff is as bad as having sex with all the 100's of ppl u walked by or that visited the store before u.

i still wear gloves everywhere. as well as my half-faced mask. and they say my county is back to 0 cases since the 1 recovered.

with your bars, i'd add gyms as a hot spot. if this is airborne and infecting, other places will get hot soon enuf. planes and hotels.

i have not been to a restaraunt or used a public bathroom in years. with the mask requirements lifted, those places are hot enuf with covid. for those who have been out and about, i'd recommend going back to covid protocals at the least. might as well start now and get used to it.
JAZZZ50

2020 The SHTF literally as TP ran out.

we went from being over the target, to actually being the target. too close to the truth.


if i had a dollar for everytime someone says "merge" without using the word, i'd b so green i'd b King of Mars.
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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08/12/2022 09:08 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !


Anita Patel MD
-AnitaKPatelMD
1/ On vacation: called florida department of health to attempt to get my 70+ in laws post exposure monkey pox after we discovered a close contact had monkey pox. Their response: “the infected individual can not have monkey pox because she is a heterosexual woman.”

burnit burnit burnit
 Quoting: dyin


OMG!! This pisses me off!!!

Okay, spoke to another person yesterday. For their security I will say no more as to who they are. Not a relative, so not uncle intel.

We already know this, but they confirmed that there is an enormous amount the public is not being told about monkeypox. It is far, far worse than any info released. They (as in f-bombing politicos) are worried about a backlash against gay people.

So, they are putting the 98.5% of us who are not gay males at great risk to protect that 1.5%. Also, I doubt there would be any backlash against gay people other than the random asshole who would be saying nasty stuff to them anyway.

Last Edited by LJS on 08/12/2022 09:10 AM
Fate whispers to the warrior

"You cannot withstand the storm"

the warrior whispers back

"I am the storm"

INTJ-A

Killer Bunny
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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08/12/2022 09:12 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Does anyone know if MP is killed by hand sanitizer.

I would love to live on a mountaintop like Grizzly Adams, but truth is, we have to live, and as a mom, I have to be out and about to take care of things for my family.
Fate whispers to the warrior

"You cannot withstand the storm"

the warrior whispers back

"I am the storm"

INTJ-A

Killer Bunny
BBQ BOY™

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08/12/2022 09:18 AM
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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Does anyone know if MP is killed by hand sanitizer.

I would love to live on a mountaintop like Grizzly Adams, but truth is, we have to live, and as a mom, I have to be out and about to take care of things for my family.
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


Not sure, this is the only thing I found on the subject.

[link to www.epa.gov (secure)]

It says it requires 5 minutes contact time to kill monkeypox with Isopropyl alcohol.

Last Edited by BBQ BOY™ on 08/12/2022 09:21 AM
"Never underestimate the pain of a person. In all honesty, everyone is struggling. Just some people are better at hiding it than others."

Everyone has to work out their own salvation.

Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards.
JAZZz50

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08/12/2022 09:22 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Does anyone know if MP is killed by hand sanitizer.

I would love to live on a mountaintop like Grizzly Adams, but truth is, we have to live, and as a mom, I have to be out and about to take care of things for my family.
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


based on the info we have, not near as easily as covid.

i'll repeat this again. the amount of time the chemical has to b in contact with a surface, such as your hands , is longer than most ppl are going to do. many hand sanitizers will evaporate faster than the neccessary time.

say the time ,it varies from cleaner to cleaner, is 3 mins, that is 3 minutes of saturated or wet stuff on every inch of your hand. apply this to wiping down a box of food. same thing applies. every inch has to b almost soaked for the time listed on the charts. even if this is 30 seconds, that is not very practical.

i will add a rebuttal- we know surfaces did not get ppl infected with covid. the way ppl use masks and touch their faces after removing them, the case #'s would have been much higher. we do have some info that points to MP acting similar to covid in this regard. however, better safe than sorry.
JAZZZ50

2020 The SHTF literally as TP ran out.

we went from being over the target, to actually being the target. too close to the truth.


if i had a dollar for everytime someone says "merge" without using the word, i'd b so green i'd b King of Mars.
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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08/12/2022 09:22 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Does anyone know if MP is killed by hand sanitizer.

I would love to live on a mountaintop like Grizzly Adams, but truth is, we have to live, and as a mom, I have to be out and about to take care of things for my family.
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


Not sure, this is the only thing I found on the subject.

[link to www.epa.gov (secure)]
 Quoting: BBQ BOY™


That is helpful. Thank you.

I am assuming this thing has not been lab tweaked, that would mean a good hand sanitizer would work.

I bought 2 cases of 99% alcohol for just in case. It is cheap right now, unless we have another panic. It does evaporate quickly, but should work in a spray bottle for things that have high risk of being infected. Not a bad thing to have in the preps anyway.
Fate whispers to the warrior

"You cannot withstand the storm"

the warrior whispers back

"I am the storm"

INTJ-A

Killer Bunny
General Thade

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08/12/2022 09:23 AM
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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Above 70% but below 90% isopropyl alcohol.
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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08/12/2022 09:24 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Does anyone know if MP is killed by hand sanitizer.

I would love to live on a mountaintop like Grizzly Adams, but truth is, we have to live, and as a mom, I have to be out and about to take care of things for my family.
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


based on the info we have, not near as easily as covid.

i'll repeat this again. the amount of time the chemical has to b in contact with a surface, such as your hands , is longer than most ppl are going to do. many hand sanitizers will evaporate faster than the neccessary time.

say the time ,it varies from cleaner to cleaner, is 3 mins, that is 3 minutes of saturated or wet stuff on every inch of your hand. apply this to wiping down a box of food. same thing applies. every inch has to b almost soaked for the time listed on the charts. even if this is 30 seconds, that is not very practical.

i will add a rebuttal- we know surfaces did not get ppl infected with covid. the way ppl use masks and touch their faces after removing them, the case #'s would have been much higher. we do have some info that points to MP acting similar to covid in this regard. however, better safe than sorry.
 Quoting: JAZZz50


My Virologist friend (Doctoral level) did tell me that the pox virus envelopes are easily dissolved by soap, as it is a fatty type membrane.

Once again, assuming it has not been tweaked.

I know that was not the scientific way to say it, but she has to speak to me in terms a non-scientist can understand.
Fate whispers to the warrior

"You cannot withstand the storm"

the warrior whispers back

"I am the storm"

INTJ-A

Killer Bunny
General Thade

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08/12/2022 09:25 AM
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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !


Anita Patel MD
-AnitaKPatelMD
1/ On vacation: called florida department of health to attempt to get my 70+ in laws post exposure monkey pox after we discovered a close contact had monkey pox. Their response: “the infected individual can not have monkey pox because she is a heterosexual woman.”

burnit burnit burnit
 Quoting: dyin


That is just so scary that the Florida department of health is that stupid.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 83085234


No, they aren’t stupid, they know what they are doing.
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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08/12/2022 09:26 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Above 70% but below 90% isopropyl alcohol.
 Quoting: General Thade


That is the Purell category. I have a crapton of that, thank God.

The kids have to go back to school with a lot of hand sanitizer AGAIN.

My hopium is getting strained.
Fate whispers to the warrior

"You cannot withstand the storm"

the warrior whispers back

"I am the storm"

INTJ-A

Killer Bunny
JAZZz50

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08/12/2022 09:28 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
going to post the CUMMULATIVE DAMAGE THEORY.
this applies to covid but the info can relate well to avoiding MP. the bold notes will help your immune system fight off MP as well as covid or any other viruses.

CUMULATIVE DAMAGE THEORY

human immune system is trained to fight off any strange particles. doesn't matter what it is , the body will fight it off as it is invading. this starts even before the germ,virus, or whatever the particle is does any damage. not suppose to b here and body fights to throw it out. the body learns how to better fight off stuff that has tried to invade before. this info is sent to other cells so the body can fight off the next attack quicker. it needs time to "rest" or send this info back to the other cells and regroup for the next attack.

with this virus u go out and get exposed to 1 particle,and your immune system does its job in fighting it off. however if u get exposed to many paricles, the body must work harder to fight them all. this is where u end up infected. if it is too many for your systems to handle u get sick.

back ion the beginning who did the vorus affect the most with the worst outcomes? those who were sick and bodies were busy fighting off other ailments. RW's low hanging fruit theory- those who were sick and weak got bad outcomes. the less busy the persons immune system was, the less severe the sickness. and in many healthy ppl, they were only infected but not even sick. assymptomatic spreaders. virus didn't like the fight so went to the nose or lungs and found a way out to find someone else to infect.

problems now are 2 fold- 1> more ppl infected, so more exposure. u fought off a few particles 2 yrs ago. now thou there are way more trying to attack u as there are more ppl exposing u to the virus. u went to the store and 1 was exposing u. now it is 10 or more. body can't fight all of the virus particles at once. now u are infected and depending on your health and immune system possibly sick.

2> that "rest" time is gone between exposures. your body needs that time to regroup. u get exposed today and then a month or so u later, your body can fight that off. u get exposed today and again tomorrow, u can not.

cumulative damage is where we are now. we have been fighting this for a year and half or more in our own towns. our immune systems are tired. hence the body can not fight off every attack like it used to. each exposure adds to the risk that the next will make u sick not just infected. while your fighters are recovering in the right lung, the next virus particle attacks the left lung. the fighters are slow to run over there and have not yet got the reports to other cells on how to best fight it off. by now, all your fighters are weaker and tired. risk goes higher with each exposure. with all your immune system fighters weakened, u need more time to rest in between exposures than a year or 2 ago. yet there are more ppl exposing you constantly now also.

the vax is a therapy to help your fighters not replace them. it ain't a true vaccine to begin with. it doesn't do much more than the vitamins some of us have been taking. let alone all the other risks that come with it. your body is weakening with each exposure and doesn't have enuf time to recover or rest between either.

to combat this u need more rest time between exposures. if u can go to the store even less frequently now than u have been. i realize this doesn't work for all ppl with work or schools. u can also boost vitamins. upgrade to higher quality masks. if u can when the waves are in your town, duck. stay home.

the ppl getting sick and ending up at hospitals are the ppl who are out and about around the most ppl. they didn't know they were infected before. they fought it off and never got sick. but now their immune sysytems are very tired. and they aren't getting exposed to just a few particles but many,many. plus the rules are changing so ppl don't have enuf time to recover between exposures. whereas, it was stay home for 2 weeks, it is now days. and your immune systems needs twice as long as before.

we all knew those cheap cloth masks were not stopping ppl from getting exposed. combined with social distancing, they did decrease how many particles ppl were exposed to. now thou, too many are spreading the virus. ppl's immune systems have gotten weaker over the 2yrs. went from being exposed, in Spring/Summer 2020, to being infected. and now to having cumulative damage so they are getting sick. if they had more time off between exposures, they could fight the virus off better. now instead of a wave, it is going to b tidal waves. whereas most ppl could fight off an exposure early 2020, ppl can not any longer and will b infected. plus with more infected, comes more exposure. the time from infected to next exposure is too short leading to ppl being sick.

note- didn't even need a varient at all. would happen as more ppl got the original. 2> do all u can to boost your immune systems now. 3> tighten prevention procedures before next year starts. 4> delay trips or outings even more than u have already. 5> do something that feels good emotionally to u. can't hide well enuf. happy is healthy. play music buy something new, eat your favorite food, call an old friend, etc. whatever u do that makes u feel better bout life even for a short time. 6> upgrade your PPE. if the best u can find is cloth masks, use gloves. put a box in your car, at work,etc. 7> get more sleep. more rest u give your body between exposures, the better it will fight for u.
 Quoting: JAZZz50

JAZZZ50

2020 The SHTF literally as TP ran out.

we went from being over the target, to actually being the target. too close to the truth.


if i had a dollar for everytime someone says "merge" without using the word, i'd b so green i'd b King of Mars.
JAZZz50

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08/12/2022 09:50 AM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
LJS, i've seen similar info but then also info saying it can survive much better and longer than covid. this MP has mutations. is it lab tweaked or is that from the merge with covid and/ vax caused?

IMO based on what i saw here locally with covid and the info thus far on MP, i think exposure from surfaces will infect ppl more than covid did but not easily. covid infected via air more so. the MP will use surface contact due to the sores.

however, u will need a lot of particles to get sick. touching a door after 1 sick person won't do it. but the risk level depends how many are sick and how much fluid they left behind. the more ppl sick in your area, the higher this risk is.

i doubt walking thru a store with MP ppl will infect lots of ppl. unless u happen to b real close to the MP infected person. touching a box of food after a MP infected put it back, should b safe. however, touching clothing that they tried on will.

covid infected ppl who were close together for long periods of time via the air. schools, work places, elevators, etc. but it didn't stay around long. sunlight killed it as well.

the MP can survive longer but seems to infect mostly from touching highly contaminated surfaces. like hospital beds or clothing with wet fluids. we do know pox can hide for months and infect later. so used couches or clothing will b problematic.


there is good and bad news with this. the good is what we have done to protect against covid should work well to keep MP away. the bad is the public is not ready for this at all.
even if they tried wearing masks, that won't b enuf.
JAZZZ50

2020 The SHTF literally as TP ran out.

we went from being over the target, to actually being the target. too close to the truth.


if i had a dollar for everytime someone says "merge" without using the word, i'd b so green i'd b King of Mars.
NueroticAngles

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08/12/2022 12:16 PM
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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
I'm old enough to have a small pox vaccine scar on my arm. Not to concerned about the monkey pox.
Lady Jane SmithModerator
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08/12/2022 12:25 PM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Just talked to a friend who works in a lab here in our tiny bubble.

Nine confirmed cases here in her lab. She has no idea about the other hospitals and labs.

So .... cluster, cluster.
Fate whispers to the warrior

"You cannot withstand the storm"

the warrior whispers back

"I am the storm"

INTJ-A

Killer Bunny
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08/12/2022 12:36 PM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
I'm old enough to have a small pox vaccine scar on my arm. Not to concerned about the monkey pox.
 Quoting: NueroticAngles


It is my understanding that immunity starts to wane about 10 years post vaccination.

You may have some immunity? I hope so.
Fate whispers to the warrior

"You cannot withstand the storm"

the warrior whispers back

"I am the storm"

INTJ-A

Killer Bunny
AV 3.0

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08/12/2022 12:51 PM
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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
I'm old enough to have a small pox vaccine scar on my arm. Not to concerned about the monkey pox.
 Quoting: NueroticAngles


It is my understanding that immunity starts to wane about 10 years post vaccination.

You may have some immunity? I hope so.
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


No actual evidence the small pox (cow pox) vaccine works against this
D00M ON
BBQ BOY™

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08/12/2022 01:01 PM
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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
I'm old enough to have a small pox vaccine scar on my arm. Not to concerned about the monkey pox.
 Quoting: NueroticAngles


It is my understanding that immunity starts to wane about 10 years post vaccination.

You may have some immunity? I hope so.
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


No actual evidence the small pox (cow pox) vaccine works against this
 Quoting: AV 3.0


They said that if you have received it more than three years ago its most likely ineffective against M/pox now.

I got mine in 1963. I had to have it to travel out of the country.

Last Edited by BBQ BOY™ on 08/12/2022 01:03 PM
"Never underestimate the pain of a person. In all honesty, everyone is struggling. Just some people are better at hiding it than others."

Everyone has to work out their own salvation.

Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards.
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08/12/2022 01:04 PM

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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
I'm old enough to have a small pox vaccine scar on my arm. Not to concerned about the monkey pox.
 Quoting: NueroticAngles


It is my understanding that immunity starts to wane about 10 years post vaccination.

You may have some immunity? I hope so.
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


No actual evidence the small pox (cow pox) vaccine works against this
 Quoting: AV 3.0


They said that if you have received it more than three years ago its most likely ineffective against M/pox now.

I got mine in 1963. I had to have it to travel out of the country.
 Quoting: BBQ BOY™


Is that a typo?

I thought you were early to mid 40s?
Fate whispers to the warrior

"You cannot withstand the storm"

the warrior whispers back

"I am the storm"

INTJ-A

Killer Bunny
BBQ BOY™

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08/12/2022 01:07 PM
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...


It is my understanding that immunity starts to wane about 10 years post vaccination.

You may have some immunity? I hope so.
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


No actual evidence the small pox (cow pox) vaccine works against this
 Quoting: AV 3.0


They said that if you have received it more than three years ago its most likely ineffective against M/pox now.

I got mine in 1963. I had to have it to travel out of the country.
 Quoting: BBQ BOY™


Is that a typo?

I thought you were early to mid 40s?
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


No I just turned 65 this last june. I got that vax when I was six. Dad was military so we had to have it when we accompanied him on tours of duty overseas.
"Never underestimate the pain of a person. In all honesty, everyone is struggling. Just some people are better at hiding it than others."

Everyone has to work out their own salvation.

Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards.
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08/12/2022 01:28 PM
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Re: •• MARBURG VIRUS •• Currently under control and slowing !
Okay, spoke to another person yesterday. For their security I will say no more as to who they are. Not a relative, so not uncle intel.

We already know this, but they confirmed that there is an enormous amount the public is not being told about monkeypox. It is far, far worse than any info released. They (as in f-bombing politicos) are worried about a backlash against gay people.

So, they are putting the 98.5% of us who are not gay males at great risk to protect that 1.5%. Also, I doubt there would be any backlash against gay people other than the random asshole who would be saying nasty stuff to them anyway.
 Quoting: Lady Jane Smith


Can you tell us any more than just " it is far worse than any info being released" ?

Anything else?





GLP