Matthew 23:3 "Do what the Pharisees say"?? - The Greek is Wrong - Bible Study | |
Servant-of-the-LORD
(OP) User ID: 80758045 United States 08/17/2021 04:34 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Nehemia Gordon and Michael Rood - 28 minutes [link to www.youtube.com (secure)] I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God. |
Servant-of-the-LORD
(OP) User ID: 80761562 United States 08/18/2021 01:39 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | So he says these are really important because up to now people have been clinging to a theory of Greek origin. Quoting: oniongrass Then he admits that they may have been translated from Greek to Hebrw and does not say there are any exceptions. So he's admitting exactly the theory above. Then he says they're really important because they reflect the gospel message. Well that's fine, that's his belief, but all it shows is that these texts were translated to a popular language of the time, Hebrw. You should listen more intently. Not all of them are translated from the Greek. Thread: Hebrews Matthew Manuscripts Clear Up Greek Translation Problems - Early Church Fathers Said Matthew was in Hebrews I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God. |
Gosden
User ID: 72371590 United States 08/18/2021 02:05 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Bible has been altered : that "A New World System" would permanently transform the world, Dr. Day, who died in 1989, wanted to prepare the 80 or so physicians present. He said people are controlled by means of the information they are given. Often contradictory information works (i.e. discrimination is bad unless it is against whites.) Information will be selective. Not everyone will be allowed to own books. "Certain books will disappear from libraries." Literary classics and the Bible will be subtly altered. People will spend longer in school but not learn anything. There will be restrictions on travel and private home ownership will gradually disappear. Homes will become so expensive that people will have to share small apartments with non-family members. The Illum Plan to E .n. slav Americans (1969) (htt)(ps...) ://(ww)w (Henry) (m)ak(ow) Dot [c] om/ [confirmedrock) efellwr plan_to_g.html#sthash.tkrMTJxB.dpuf |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 75717227 Sweden 08/18/2021 02:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Servant-of-the-LORD
(OP) User ID: 68847247 United States 08/19/2021 12:00 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Instead of the word they...the word "he" is used - meaning Moses. Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD "Do what Moses says". That make a LOT more sense. Absolutely. One little wrongly translated word can corrupt the entire meaning of a verse. I disagree with "wrongly translated". I believe it was deliberate. ALL Greek manuscripts say... ...they - NOT "he". Here's the verse in Greek...with links to Strong's for each word. [link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)] Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 08/19/2021 12:02 AM I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God. |
Jesus Christ is God Almighty
User ID: 79622812 United States 08/19/2021 01:54 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | St. Matthew 23:1-3 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Your way: St. Matthew 23:1-3 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever Moses bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after the Pharisees' works: for they say, and do not. What do the Pharisees preach? The laws of Moses. They are skilled in knowing and explaining/applying the word of God to people in their circumstances. So whether it says he or they, it refers to the law. Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law and prophets, which means they are still in effect. Anyone who breaks the laws of Moses and teaches others to do likewise are called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Why does that matter? Because in ignorance a Pharisee, like Paul, still obeys/obeyed the law of God. That's why Paul said he is innocent of any man's blood. He faithfully obeyed the Old Testament while ignorantly being under the New Testament. If a man is confused and justifies which old testament commandments to break without acceptance of the New Testament will, he is faithful in little, meaning he doesn't care about God and his will anyways. Let's add to this understanding that each person fits in a pattern set by someone in the Bible. The pastors are the modern day Pharisee. Sad but true. Most of them would reject and kill Jesus because they reject his true teachings and lead souls to eternal death. This therefore is the meaning of the verse. If you were ignorant of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and the will of God, and you walk into a church, the pastor will preach the will of God despite their own hypocrisies and sins and faults and issues. The applicable word of God Jesus: Philippians 1:15-18 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. Obedience to the will of God FAITHFULLY is what matters. Because even if it is done ignorantly, it is done faithfully. What is meant by that? Perfect example: How many NEW, New Testament believers in the Jesus Christ then went and did animal sacrifice? Probably most of the tens of thousands of them. Do you suppose Jesus rejected them because they ignorantly substituted their propitiation for the sins with an animal again? We know Paul strongly warned against it, when it was time for them to be warned against it. Did God ever come to you and unroll a list of all of your problems and point them all out and demand immediate change? Or did he give you what you needed when you were able to hear it? The Old Testament laws are still in effect and if you can keep them you should. Not that they give salvation but because the law is good. Do we therefore stone adulterers and homosexuals? The New law of mercy and not judging with punishment is greater than judgement and no mercy according to the old law, and leaving room for God to punish in his perfect wisdom. |
Servant-of-the-LORD
(OP) User ID: 44059192 United States 08/19/2021 02:09 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | St. Matthew 23:1-3 Quoting: Jesus Christ is God Almighty Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Your way: St. Matthew 23:1-3 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever Moses bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after the Pharisees' works: for they say, and do not. What do the Pharisees preach? The laws of Moses. They are skilled in knowing and explaining/applying the word of God to people in their circumstances. NONSENSE. It's not "my way" - it's in SOME copies of the Masoretic Text. WHY did Jesus bash the scribes and Pharisees so much? Because they had added al sorts of rules and regulations to the laws that had been given to Moses. Ever hear of the Babylonian Talmud? THAT is what the Pharisees were teaching. John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? "scribes and Pharisees" occurs 14 times in 14 verses in the 4 Gospels in the KJV. [link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)] Jesus didn't do away with "the law" - and the 10 Commandments are STILL in effect. Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Thread: The 10 Commandments Are Still Valid - They Define Major Sins AND Show How to Love God - Bible Study Thread: To Understand Paul - His Letters Don't Tell Us All of What He Originally Preached - Bible Study I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God. |
Servant-of-the-LORD
(OP) User ID: 44059192 United States 08/19/2021 02:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The applicable word of God Jesus: Quoting: Jesus Christ is God Almighty Philippians 1:15-18 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. "God Jesus"? That phrase isn't used in the Bible. And for that matter, Jesus didn't dictate Paul's letters for him to have written. Thread: Paul's Epistles are not THUS SAITH THE LORD Bible verses For that matter - Paul NEVER says... "Jesus said"...."Jesus told me"... ...or anything similar. "Jesus said" occurs 0 times in 0 verses in your custom selection 'between Rom and Phm' in the KJV. [link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)] I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God. |
REaliZe
User ID: 78035450 United States 08/19/2021 02:38 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Interesting... I never really stumbled over this but can see your point. I took it to mean that the Pharisees are the law keepers, assigned by God as mediators for the people, like Moses. They know the law of Moses (to a fault) and certainly lambast the people with it. However, they do not practice the law themselves. They are hypocrites, who say one thing but do another. Listen to their public-facing logic, but then use them as examples how NOT to actually carry it out... Just my take. There's. A. H0le. In. The. Sky. |
Jesus Christ is God Almighty
User ID: 80693068 United States 08/19/2021 06:53 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | St. Matthew 23:1-3 Quoting: Jesus Christ is God Almighty Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Your way: St. Matthew 23:1-3 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever Moses bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after the Pharisees' works: for they say, and do not. What do the Pharisees preach? The laws of Moses. They are skilled in knowing and explaining/applying the word of God to people in their circumstances. NONSENSE. It's not "my way" - it's in SOME copies of the Masoretic Text. WHY did Jesus bash the scribes and Pharisees so much? Because they had added al sorts of rules and regulations to the laws that had been given to Moses. Ever hear of the Babylonian Talmud? THAT is what the Pharisees were teaching. John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? "scribes and Pharisees" occurs 14 times in 14 verses in the 4 Gospels in the KJV. [link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)] Jesus didn't do away with "the law" - and the 10 Commandments are STILL in effect. Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Thread: The 10 Commandments Are Still Valid - They Define Major Sins AND Show How to Love God - Bible Study Thread: To Understand Paul - His Letters Don't Tell Us All of What He Originally Preached - Bible Study I understand that you think Jesus is referring to the oral tradition, what is now called the Talmud, I get that, but look what Jesus said: But do not after the [Pharisees] WORKS. He didn't say, do not after their instructions. I'm not in disagreement with you in regards to Jesus telling his people to not put before the commandments of God the doctrines of men, we know he said that twice that that's what the Pharisees do. Therefore I am not defending the Talmud or against Jesus' instruction to avoid it, this is a matter of what the verse is saying. I could concede that it should say He instead of they. Please take a look at a webpage for me since it won't load on m phone but will on a computer, and find the verse on this page and tell me what it says: Kj1611.word(pressure).com |
Jesus Christ is God Almighty
User ID: 80693068 United States 08/19/2021 07:22 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | They sit in the seat of Moses, therefore observe and do everything HE/THEY tell you to do (according to the laws of Moses), but don't do according to THEIR works, because they have added to the laws of Moses, and they also don't always do what they have told others to do according to oral tradition, and it is also not the law of Moses. And they also seek after fame and power, and love to be seen and greeted and gifted of men, but you are not to be like them, don't mimick them. I don't see the issue here. It says they because Jesus said therefore observe and do what THEY say (according to the laws of Moses) because THEY sit in the seat of Moses, they, the Pharisees, the pastors, the teachers of the law, but don't be like them because their hearts are far from Jesus. The problem is that you want to make a common theme between verses and gospels which would detract from what Jesus was saying. It would cause loss of other points and messages Jesus was trying to make. So, one point is don't observe their behaviours. Another is don't put their traditions before the commandments of God. Another is obey what they tell you from the law. Those are 3 separate points that Jesus made. You want to erase the last point and make only two points. That's subtracting from the Word of Jesus. Last Edited by Jesus Christ is God Almighty on 08/19/2021 07:23 PM |
bigkahuna62
User ID: 73641815 Jamaica 08/19/2021 07:28 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | He attacked them for being hypocritical and choosing laws they wanted to follow. In addition, they were getting rich off the people. When Christ mentions following the Pharisees, He is talking about spirit of God's word. Keeping the law in the old testament. He had not been crucified therefore He kept the law. Once He died the vail was torn into from top to bottom signifying the law ended and Grace took over. bigkahuna62 |
AncientNavigator
User ID: 80082094 Portugal 08/19/2021 07:37 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Lame excuse for misunderstanding. They is correct. What he is saying is "Do what they say but don't do what they do". Have most people completely lost the ability to correctly understand what they read?? Last Edited by AncientNavigator on 08/19/2021 07:39 PM « ...and we will sail anew, in ships built from what dreams are made of! » |
oniongrass
User ID: 80365283 United States 08/19/2021 08:14 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | 1. Was Matthew originally written in Heb rew? That's news to me. 2. What did Moses say? He brought the Oral Law, which is interpreted and taught by the rabbis, in addition to the Torah including the Commandments. Oral Law had not been written down yet, just transmitted orally. So maybe that's what is meant by "what Moses said". . DON'T VAX, PROPHYLAX! ____________ There is no anger in Me: If one offers Me thorns and thistles, I will march to battle against him, And set all of them on fire. But if he holds fast to My refuge, He makes Me his friend; He makes Me his friend. (Isaiah 27:4-5) |
oniongrass
User ID: 80365283 United States 08/19/2021 08:30 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | So he says these are really important because up to now people have been clinging to a theory of Greek origin. Quoting: oniongrass Then he admits that they may have been translated from Greek to Hebrw and does not say there are any exceptions. So he's admitting exactly the theory above. Then he says they're really important because they reflect the gospel message. Well that's fine, that's his belief, but all it shows is that these texts were translated to a popular language of the time, Hebrw. You should listen more intently. Not all of them are translated from the Greek. Thread: Hebrews Matthew Manuscripts Clear Up Greek Translation Problems - Early Church Fathers Said Matthew was in Hebrews Where is that quote from? I didn't find it in the thread you pulled up from 3 years ago, nor is it in this thread. I mean, I might write something like that, and I'd probably be right, but it's on you to identify the reference before citing it. Rather than saying I didn't "listen" to some other thread from 3 years back, and you were probably wrong there ... Last Edited by oniongrass on 08/19/2021 08:33 PM . DON'T VAX, PROPHYLAX! ____________ There is no anger in Me: If one offers Me thorns and thistles, I will march to battle against him, And set all of them on fire. But if he holds fast to My refuge, He makes Me his friend; He makes Me his friend. (Isaiah 27:4-5) |
Servant-of-the-LORD
(OP) User ID: 64787804 United States 08/19/2021 11:17 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | So he says these are really important because up to now people have been clinging to a theory of Greek origin. Quoting: oniongrass Then he admits that they may have been translated from Greek to Hebrw and does not say there are any exceptions. So he's admitting exactly the theory above. Then he says they're really important because they reflect the gospel message. Well that's fine, that's his belief, but all it shows is that these texts were translated to a popular language of the time, Hebrw. You should listen more intently. Not all of them are translated from the Greek. Thread: Hebrews Matthew Manuscripts Clear Up Greek Translation Problems - Early Church Fathers Said Matthew was in Hebrews Where is that quote from? I didn't find it in the thread you pulled up from 3 years ago, nor is it in this thread. I mean, I might write something like that, and I'd probably be right, but it's on you to identify the reference before citing it. Rather than saying I didn't "listen" to some other thread from 3 years back, and you were probably wrong there ... Here's your post from 20 days ago. Thread: Dr. Al Garza Claims There Are Over 4000 New Testament Manuscripts in the Hebrews Language I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God. |
Servant-of-the-LORD
(OP) User ID: 64787804 United States 08/19/2021 11:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Lame excuse for misunderstanding. Quoting: AncientNavigator They is correct. What he is saying is "Do what they say but don't do what they do". Have most people completely lost the ability to correctly understand what they read?? There's NO way Jesus would have said... ..."Obey the Pharisees". Too much scripture against that. And sorry - no "Greek is the original" argument will stand in my topics. Jesus and the Apostles were Hebrews. They SPOKE Hebrews. And there's a growing concensus that Matthew and other New Testament wtitings were originally in the Hebrews language. I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God. |
Servant-of-the-LORD
(OP) User ID: 64787804 United States 08/19/2021 11:25 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | 1. Was Matthew originally written in Heb rew? That's news to me. Quoting: oniongrass 2. What did Moses say? He brought the Oral Law, which is interpreted and taught by the rabbis, in addition to the Torah including the Commandments. Oral Law had not been written down yet, just transmitted orally. So maybe that's what is meant by "what Moses said". 1. Growing numbers of scholars seem to agree. 2. Moses did NOT bring the "Oral Law". Pharisees claim God gave it to the 70. And even IF he did - there's NO record written of it in the Torah. Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 08/19/2021 11:26 PM I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God. |
Servant-of-the-LORD
(OP) User ID: 64787804 United States 08/19/2021 11:43 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The problem is that you want to make a common theme between verses and gospels which would detract from what Jesus was saying. It would cause loss of other points and messages Jesus was trying to make. Quoting: Jesus Christ is God Almighty Sorry - scripture PROVES that neither Jesus - NOR His Father - OUR Father - God - by association - approved what the Pharisees had become and were teaching. Your trying to hang on to the "primacy of the Greek texts" as being "correct". It's becoming clearer by the day that they are NOT the original language of Matthew - and possibly even the entire New Testament. I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 49633179 United States 08/20/2021 01:06 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Lame excuse for misunderstanding. Quoting: AncientNavigator They is correct. What he is saying is "Do what they say but don't do what they do". Have most people completely lost the ability to correctly understand what they read?? That's nonsensical. Jesus said numerous times what the Pharasees were practicing was NOT the Law. He also basically said they were compulsive liars lol. And murderers to boot. Servant of the Lord has the right view on this. |
savcash
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Alien Seb Fiend
User ID: 79785710 Canada 08/20/2021 10:27 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I think maybe some folk are misreading that somewhat artful line of text? 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. This says plainly: Don't just accept what people in power tell you, but observe carefully, because most of the times they talk out of their arse. That's that the line basically says. |
Chaz Aldrin
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Servant-of-the-LORD
(OP) User ID: 80770452 United States 08/20/2021 01:46 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I think maybe some folk are misreading that somewhat artful line of text? Quoting: Alien Seb Fiend 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. This says plainly: Don't just accept what people in power tell you, but observe carefully, because most of the times they talk out of their arse. That's that the line basically says. The whole point is that pretty much ALL of Jesus' dealings with the Pharisees were "confrontational". Jesus made it clear that the Pharisees were NOT teaching what Moses had been given. This verse sums it up... John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? Here's all the verses in the 4 Gospels that mention the Pharisees. There's a link on the left of each one that takes you to each passage/book/chapter. [link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)] The word "Pharisees" occurs 82 times in 80 verses in the 4 Gospels in the KJV. I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God. |
Servant-of-the-LORD
(OP) User ID: 80770452 United States 08/20/2021 02:16 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Here's what I believe. 1. Many of the Hebrews words were basically impossible to translate properly into Greek. For the most part, they did the best they could. 2. Scribes were human - and they made errors. One wrong letter can change not only the word - but the entire meaning of the verse / passage. 3. Some words were deliberately changed. Just look at all the the translations of one single verse in our own times. And pretty much all of them will say..."WE have the correct understanding". 4. Scribes changed some verses / words based on their understanding of what the writer was trying to convey. Here's one example. Thread: Jude 1:5 "Jesus Led the Israelites"? No Other Verses Say So - KJV Bible Study It also appears that entire verses may have been added to support doctrines. Thread: John 6:4 Passover - Early Church Leaders Stated That Jesus Ministry Was About a Year - Bible History - Bible Study I'm not advocating "doing away" with the Greek manuscripts. They are an important "witness". Jesus said to "Seek God". I believe that includes checking various translations when things just don't seem to "add up". I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God. |