POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? | |
Johnny Balls
User ID: 80196731 Canada 07/04/2021 08:43 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 80551209 Pakistan 07/04/2021 08:46 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? I voted other. Chiropractic therapists are trained to get a much money from you as possible by stretching the treatments over a long period. Osteopaths are trained to put things right as quickly as possible. Go to an expensive osteopath. They may not be as common as chiropractors because they aren't just after money. Of course their will be exceptions on both sides, but most chiropractors are careerist and most osteopaths are vocational. I'm very well after years of back problems and a lot of money so I'm reasonably qualified to comment. I went, finally, to the most expensive osteopath who treats olympic and pro sports people. He is badass. |
joeym
User ID: 79853904 United States 07/04/2021 08:46 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? Don't go to the chiropractor! My husband had back and neck pain about ten years ago. He went to our family doctor, who does chiropractic and osteopathic manipulations. The manipulation caused his cervical spine to shatter from C2 through C6. Had we not been at one of the best neurological hospitals in the world, Barrows, my husband would have died. The best-case scenario that we were given was that he would be in a wheelchair for life. With a fantastic doctor and lots of prayers, my husband made it through the surgery but it was a long battle back to walking. Why take the risk? Some people may hate on me for my view of chiropractic adjustments but, as you can see from our experience, a simple adjustment can be fatal. My husband was rushed into surgery and had a world-class surgeon. Otherwise, he would have died. So, sorry, but this is one issue I am a bit rabid about. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 80369564 United States 07/04/2021 08:48 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 43737266 United States 07/04/2021 09:01 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? Sleep on a hard surface carpet on concrete. Tie two big toes together. Sleep like this for a couple days and start stretching. Ab workouts etc. been there, done that. Sorry brother Quoting: Anonymous Coward 80203082 This is true. Dunno about tying toes together. I've thrown my back out a few times over the years. First time my boss told me to sleep on the floor, face up. Has happened twice since and sleeping on a hard surface fixed it every time. It can have some padding, but it needs to be firm and not too deep. Use pillows to support your neck & upper back and maybe under your knees. You want to keep your back flat and relatively immobile. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 29586687 United States 07/04/2021 09:04 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 35528647 Australia 07/04/2021 09:07 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? Don’t listen to a fucking word anyone here has given here regarding remedies for your back pain. Diet has fuck all to do with your condition and chiropractors manipulate you in ways to keep you coming back for more. Not too mention that they always manipulate cold muscles...enough said on that. McTimoney Therapy is the ONLY solution to your ongoing problems. Your issues stem from improper vertebrae alignment along with hip displacement. Seek out a qualified practitioner and your problems will disappear forever. You’ll thank me later. |
10822R88
User ID: 80179242 United States 07/04/2021 09:09 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? Ice. Quoting: 10822R88 Stretching Diet...avoid night shade veggies. No chiropractor! Inversion table would work. Must ice! Must stretch. Drugs- ibuprofen, muscle relaxer at night ..(oh that’s right we can’t get those anymore)..... cbd would help relax the body. cinnamon, and or turmeric Hyaluronic acid No chiropractor! Stretch! Ice! So you really believe to stay away from the chiropractor! NO TO THE CHIROPRACTOR! |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 72562904 United States 07/04/2021 09:09 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? I'mma tell you this just once so listen up it will fix you. Find yourself a walker like a old people Walker and suspend yourself from your arms and let all the tension out of your back and wiggle your butt when you do that gravity is going to pull your back straight and you're going to hear it pop all the way down and you do that for a few days straight in your back will be fixed. It did it for me it's better than inversion table |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 79324350 United States 07/04/2021 09:10 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
musashi777
User ID: 80413657 Canada 07/04/2021 09:14 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? Personally I don't use it much longer than 30sec - 1min a day. It decompresses my spinal chord and relieves 95% of back pain. You can find it usually second hand or on special for around 300$. There is only one model I would recommend, from what I heard the others are not that great. Mine basically looks like this I got it for 300 [link to www.tsc.ca (secure)] |
FlashBuzzkill
User ID: 80346963 United States 07/04/2021 09:16 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? I had a busted disc between l4 and L5 right above my hip. Laid me out for nearly a year, it took a steroid epideural to make it stop. Painkillers were useful but didn't cure anything. Exercises like pulling your knee to your chest, laying on your back and reaching one knee across to the floor on the other side etc were a godsend to preventing flareups later on. The only good news was after 4-5 years of lumbar facet injections, nerve blocks it eventually healed itself without a doctors help. stretching, epidural shot (which are risky btw) and percocet were the only things that helped me. Good luck buddy, i hope you get over this soon. Gen. John B Gordon and Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest were the finest citizen-soldiers birthed in America. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 43737266 United States 07/04/2021 09:17 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? Ok this might sound nutty and odd but it works. It's also safe. Quoting: Peepaws Go to Walmart or order online a 6 inch plasma globe. It's marketed as a fun device, you plug it in, turn it on, and it makes plasma inside which looks like lightning strikes. Place the outside of the globe against the painful area on your back. It might be a bit hard to maneuver as even simply putting an arm in back can hurt. But place the thing maybe between the back of a chair or sofa and your back. Have it on, and keep it there around 4 minutes. Do this several times a day, 3 to 5 if you can stand it. It just needs to be against the skin not pressing in hard or anything. This shortens the healing/pain time from like 3 weeks to 4 or 5 days at the longest. They are good for burns too. If you burn yourself (simple burn) place against plasma globe for 5 minutes, 30 minutes later it will be like nothing happened. They use it at burn clinics in Germany. This is cold plasma, rather than blood plasma, a completely different thing. Cold plasma is said by some to be the 4th state of matter after solid, liquid, gas...then plasma. It's like God's perfect light and corrects what it comes into contact with. It will be the future of medical technology and have many applications. I'm sorry but this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You may as well take a tank of helium and blow it straight up your ass for all the healing properties. |
Trained Noticer
Forum Moderator User ID: 80558422 United States 07/04/2021 09:19 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? you need a different chiropractor. For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible. (Stuart Chase) It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. (Mark Twain) |
J-lee
User ID: 79396918 United States 07/04/2021 09:22 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? Find a new chiro, preferably through a personal recommendation. Quoting: Artificial Person They vary more wildly in quality than car mechanics. i was surprised to find that a visit to the barbers in india often comes with a complimentary back/neck click. and you can get excellent, clean dental work cheap at the roadside. i think we're living in the wrong countries. Wait, what? Come again with this and explain the roadside? I mean it would only take a trip to India rn, hmmm....I’m interested but incredibly hesitant |
My Fear
User ID: 71860689 United States 07/04/2021 09:30 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? The best thing you can do for yourself is to stretch often, and exercise to to lose weight and get more fit. Most of your back pain is actually coming because you had to over compensate for your abnormal muscles. It won't matter how much you get a pop here and there. The only way to solve the problem is to gain more flexibility and strengthen your muscles. Take a warm bath with Epson sault daily. Avoid lavender and chamomile if you are man. Those will interfere with your insulin production and endocrine system over all. It great for women though. If you can join Planet Fitness they offer warm water infused table massage is great as well. They have this whole body, standing up vibrating platform thing too that is great. Just make sure you sing up for black card. Go at least 3 of four times per week. Taking magnesium , potassium, and calcium will help the process along. Take about every other day and rotate it with iron and other supplements like fish oil and vitamin Da a multivitamin. If you are anemic, that too will lock up your muscles more often. If you drink cut back or quite. Cut back on any food that make you bloat. Take Beano. Frequent bloating can put stress on your back as well, because it is over stretching your abdomen muscles. It will cause you are well to adapt poor posture. Anyways, good luck. It is just going to take long time and you are going to have to be tenacious and taking care of yourself. |
Butch DeFeo
(OP) User ID: 69423899 United States 07/04/2021 09:34 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? I have been there and done that. Ask your doctor for a tans unit. I will provide electrical stimulation. It is covered by most medical insurances. Still by itself it will not do too much for the long haul. Quoting: My Fear The best thing you can do for yourself is to stretch often, and exercise to to lose weight and get more fit. Most of your back pain is actually coming because you had to over compensate for your abnormal muscles. It won't matter how much you get a pop here and there. The only way to solve the problem is to gain more flexibility and strengthen your muscles. Take a warm bath with Epson sault daily. Avoid lavender and chamomile if you are man. Those will interfere with your insulin production and endocrine system over all. It great for women though. If you can join Planet Fitness they offer warm water infused table massage is great as well. They have this whole body, standing up vibrating platform thing too that is great. Just make sure you sing up for black card. Go at least 3 of four times per week. Taking magnesium , potassium, and calcium will help the process along. Take about every other day and rotate it with iron and other supplements like fish oil and vitamin Da a multivitamin. If you are anemic, that too will lock up your muscles more often. If you drink cut back or quite. Cut back on any food that make you bloat. Take Beano. Frequent bloating can put stress on your back as well, because it is over stretching your abdomen muscles. It will cause you are well to adapt poor posture. Anyways, good luck. It is just going to take long time and you are going to have to be tenacious and taking care of yourself. Wow! I had about 12 drops of lavender essential oil to my bath every time I take a hot bath with epsom salts. So that's a bad idea? :DOCSRBAFFLED::redblueLED::DONTBEAPANDEMICS: Only you can stop the fake pandemic for yourself, no one will ever tell you the pandemic is over. It's time to WIN. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 35528647 Australia 07/04/2021 09:40 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? Don’t listen to a fucking word anyone here has given here regarding remedies for your back pain. Diet has fuck all to do with your condition and chiropractors manipulate you in ways to keep you coming back for more. Not too mention that they always manipulate cold muscles...enough said on that. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35528647 McTimoney Therapy is the ONLY solution to your ongoing problems. Your issues stem from improper vertebrae alignment along with hip displacement. Seek out a qualified practitioner and your problems will disappear forever. You’ll thank me later. |
My Fear
User ID: 71860689 United States 07/04/2021 09:42 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? Ok this might sound nutty and odd but it works. It's also safe. Quoting: Peepaws Go to Walmart or order online a 6 inch plasma globe. It's marketed as a fun device, you plug it in, turn it on, and it makes plasma inside which looks like lightning strikes. Place the outside of the globe against the painful area on your back. It might be a bit hard to maneuver as even simply putting an arm in back can hurt. But place the thing maybe between the back of a chair or sofa and your back. Have it on, and keep it there around 4 minutes. Do this several times a day, 3 to 5 if you can stand it. It just needs to be against the skin not pressing in hard or anything. This shortens the healing/pain time from like 3 weeks to 4 or 5 days at the longest. They are good for burns too. If you burn yourself (simple burn) place against plasma globe for 5 minutes, 30 minutes later it will be like nothing happened. They use it at burn clinics in Germany. This is cold plasma, rather than blood plasma, a completely different thing. Cold plasma is said by some to be the 4th state of matter after solid, liquid, gas...then plasma. It's like God's perfect light and corrects what it comes into contact with. It will be the future of medical technology and have many applications. I'm sorry but this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You may as well take a tank of helium and blow it straight up your ass for all the healing properties. Actually, have I have seen people do something similar like this various ailments. I tried it a few times as well at a hyperbaric HBOT spa. People would go their to support healing from all sots of various conditions. I tried it. First, they have you drink a cold bottle of alkaline water. Then I would go into a darken room with this lighting producing machine. You do not get shocked directly. You just shit down and hold these two different color robs. I guess it is suppose to raise your energy level so the body can heal itself faster. I did feel better strangely after words although I can't explain much how. It seemed more like a way to meditate. I guess it works. I forgot what is it called. Electromagnetic...? |
My Fear
User ID: 71860689 United States 07/04/2021 09:53 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? I have been there and done that. Ask your doctor for a tans unit. I will provide electrical stimulation. It is covered by most medical insurances. Still by itself it will not do too much for the long haul. Quoting: My Fear The best thing you can do for yourself is to stretch often, and exercise to to lose weight and get more fit. Most of your back pain is actually coming because you had to over compensate for your abnormal muscles. It won't matter how much you get a pop here and there. The only way to solve the problem is to gain more flexibility and strengthen your muscles. Take a warm bath with Epson sault daily. Avoid lavender and chamomile if you are man. Those will interfere with your insulin production and endocrine system over all. It great for women though. If you can join Planet Fitness they offer warm water infused table massage is great as well. They have this whole body, standing up vibrating platform thing too that is great. Just make sure you sing up for black card. Go at least 3 of four times per week. Taking magnesium , potassium, and calcium will help the process along. Take about every other day and rotate it with iron and other supplements like fish oil and vitamin Da a multivitamin. If you are anemic, that too will lock up your muscles more often. If you drink cut back or quite. Cut back on any food that make you bloat. Take Beano. Frequent bloating can put stress on your back as well, because it is over stretching your abdomen muscles. It will cause you are well to adapt poor posture. Anyways, good luck. It is just going to take long time and you are going to have to be tenacious and taking care of yourself. Wow! I had about 12 drops of lavender essential oil to my bath every time I take a hot bath with epsom salts. So that's a bad idea? For men ... Yes. The problem is lavender oil in products such as shampoo, soap and skin lotion, may lead to enlarged breast tissue in boys/ men. A pediatric endocrinologist at the University of Colorado at Denver first suspected a link between lavender oil use and gynecomastia after diagnosing three young males with the condition. And of course boobs and back problems, for muscles you don't have to support breast would be a problem. LOL! For women lavender helps to balance their insulin levels. However for men it can drop their insulin levels dramatically, because they don't have the estrogen's needed to balance it. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 80551531 United States 07/04/2021 09:56 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Elegant Walnut
User ID: 75598088 Canada 07/04/2021 09:57 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 80444180 United States 07/04/2021 10:08 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? I will say what my mother would say. Don't do anything that causes your back to hurt. I suggest you rest your back for a week, all while alternating between cold and warm compresses, or just warm or cold depending on what gives you more relief. Then on week two, you could start a gentle exercise regimen to strengthen your back, following the recommendations of a physiotherapist. Do this for about a month. During week three, you could add massage therapy. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 80444180 United States 07/04/2021 10:10 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? I had a busted disc between l4 and L5 right above my hip. Laid me out for nearly a year, it took a steroid epideural to make it stop. Painkillers were useful but didn't cure anything. Exercises like pulling your knee to your chest, laying on your back and reaching one knee across to the floor on the other side etc were a godsend to preventing flareups later on. The only good news was after 4-5 years of lumbar facet injections, nerve blocks it eventually healed itself without a doctors help. stretching, epidural shot (which are risky btw) and percocet were the only things that helped me. Good luck buddy, i hope you get over this soon. Quoting: FlashBuzzkill That kind of thing builds character |
Happy in Nature
User ID: 80450183 Nicaragua 07/04/2021 10:10 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? I have been there and done that. Ask your doctor for a tans unit. I will provide electrical stimulation. It is covered by most medical insurances. Still by itself it will not do too much for the long haul. Quoting: My Fear The best thing you can do for yourself is to stretch often, and exercise to to lose weight and get more fit. Most of your back pain is actually coming because you had to over compensate for your abnormal muscles. It won't matter how much you get a pop here and there. The only way to solve the problem is to gain more flexibility and strengthen your muscles. Take a warm bath with Epson sault daily. Avoid lavender and chamomile if you are man. Those will interfere with your insulin production and endocrine system over all. It great for women though. If you can join Planet Fitness they offer warm water infused table massage is great as well. They have this whole body, standing up vibrating platform thing too that is great. Just make sure you sing up for black card. Go at least 3 of four times per week. Taking magnesium , potassium, and calcium will help the process along. Take about every other day and rotate it with iron and other supplements like fish oil and vitamin Da a multivitamin. If you are anemic, that too will lock up your muscles more often. If you drink cut back or quite. Cut back on any food that make you bloat. Take Beano. Frequent bloating can put stress on your back as well, because it is over stretching your abdomen muscles. It will cause you are well to adapt poor posture. Anyways, good luck. It is just going to take long time and you are going to have to be tenacious and taking care of yourself. Wow! I had about 12 drops of lavender essential oil to my bath every time I take a hot bath with epsom salts. So that's a bad idea? For men ... Yes. The problem is lavender oil in products such as shampoo, soap and skin lotion, may lead to enlarged breast tissue in boys/ men. A pediatric endocrinologist at the University of Colorado at Denver first suspected a link between lavender oil use and gynecomastia after diagnosing three young males with the condition. And of course boobs and back problems, for muscles you don't have to support breast would be a problem. LOL! For women lavender helps to balance their insulin levels. However for men it can drop their insulin levels dramatically, because they don't have the estrogen's needed to balance it. I am so glad that you shared this information. I study herbs and essential oils and never heard this. A friend of mine is Type 1 diabetic and likes to use lavender and mint on his feet. HE is heavier, so hard to tell if there was an effect, but he definitely needs to know this. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 79010812 United States 07/04/2021 10:11 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
The Rickest Rick Sanchez
User ID: 80416052 United States 07/04/2021 10:11 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? Just take opiates and alcohol until you can't feel anything anymore. It the suburban way. The universe is basically an animal. It grazes on the ordinary. It creates infinite idiots just to eat them. The Rickest Rick Sanchez comments are meant for entertainment purposes only and should not be construed to reflect the feelings and opinions, implied or expressed, of the author. |
javierruizleon
User ID: 79620634 United States 07/04/2021 10:12 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? You need to do a couple things. Quoting: Justme C'est Moi 1) Stop the muscle spasm. - Naproxin for the inflammation, a muscle relaxer like cyclobenzaprine, magnesium and Potassium. 2) Mobilize each joint of the back to allow nourishing, healing and lubricating synovial joint fluid into the joint spaces. - Inversion table or inversion chair (opens the joint spaces) - If you can find a talented Asian back walker, they are amazing. - Lie on back with a foam roller and roll out the entire spine. Might not be able to do this right away. - Practice Tai Chi. The forms will open your spinal spaces by shifting your weight and body position. - Eat some vegetables every day as well as a bowl of oatmeal. helps thin the synovial fluid as well as reduce inflammation. - boil a whole chicken for 3 hours and consume the broth (skim some of the fat off the top)(Helps rebuild cartilage tissue). Reduce wheat intake until your are better. Good luck. If you are in agony and just need something quick, lie on your back on a cool cement floor with knees elevated on a chair. Just lie there and relax a while. Maybe some gentle head turning side to side. And inflatable exercise ball can also be handy to start getting mobilization back if you have one handy. magnesium, Zinc, and Potassium are critical to mens health, we don't get enough of them Genesis-Acts,Hebrews-Revelation to, you know who Romans-Philemon to the Church Mid-Acts Pauline Dispensational Right Division |
AdorableLittlepixie
User ID: 80566605 Australia 07/04/2021 10:18 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? This Littlepixie also voted other. I'm only up to page 3 and wanted to drop this in here. My suggestion, as in what works for me. Please consider stopping going to the Chiropractor, I went to several before realizing I was just buying them a new BMW! I currently use a Bowen therapist once a month. A Bowen treatment is very a gentle massage of your muscles to help them re-hydrate as they can become "sticky". No point having your bones "crunched" around when its the muscles that support the bones. Now, if you have been having to compensate(using wrong muscles) to do normal things so it reduces the amount of pain you are in then, I feel you would greatly benefit from trying Bowen Therapy. It's not a one visit will fix it forever, it may be several visits initially and then as you need. [link to www.americanbowen.academy (secure)] AdorableLittlepixie I am safe and protected with every step I take with everybody always. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 75665034 United States 07/04/2021 10:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? POLL: HELP! My back went out a few weeks ago - do I keep going to the chiropractor, or stop seeing him and do exercises? Quoting: Butch DeFeo This poll may help anyone down the road whose back goes out. I was lifting some heavier things, probably incorrectly about 2.5 weeks ago, and the next day my back went out when tying my shoes. I went to the chiropractor and believe he helped the first time I saw him or maybe two, but after that it seems seeing him 3 times a week for a few months is over the top and maybe even detrimental. Anyone have any advice on getting a functional back, after the back goes out? :DOOMTOTAL: :CATAFFE: :REDPB: Take the jab dumbass. Cures all ailments. Otherwise, put your damn mask back on and shut your fucking pie eating cakehole. |