Free will

Would you be disappointed that you do not have free control over the ability to create choices in life? Only the freedom to exercise your freewill?

Choices are created by other(s), you have ability to choose.

there is no choice in an unreal state


Perhaps the ability to create choices are made in an unreal state? hmmm

Free will doesn't exist. Thought is the product of government, parental imprinting, advertising, media manipulation.

Show me a person who has been raised in a vacuum and I'll show you a free man!

Free will doesn't exist. Thought is the product of government, parental imprinting, advertising, media manipulation.

Show me a person who has been raised in a vacuum and I'll show you a free man!

Free will doesn't exist. Thought is the product of government, parental imprinting, advertising, media manipulation.

Show me a person who has been raised in a vacuum and I'll show you a free man!


Virtually every person here is convinced that they are free and own their thoughts. They're not and they don't!

Oedipus Rex is always an interesting meditation on free will. One might conclude that there is no free will, only fate (and for many here, fate being what the government, business, and media mandate). One might also see Oedipus' fatal flaw, which was a single-minded commitment to avoiding his fate, thus fulfilling it. This is why I wrote earlier, we must learn to make decisions that are neither mindless nor reactionary. Both these paths lead to the same hell.

You know what's funny? I never think about the government or acknowledge their influence. It's a non issue in my life, and therefore they don't even figure into my reality or overall perception of life.

I wonder if at this point do we need to define terms.

When we talk about the will are we talking about fate, or are we talking about destiny. To me these three things are different.

as I see it,

The will is the action of our desire, it creates our fate and determines the length of our struggle towards destiny.

Destiny is our end product the accumulation of all our existance, fate is what results from the use of our will, it is how close we get to our true destiny within this life time.

in the USA we are the govt.
and if we don't like how we are running things
we can change it
it's a good use of our free will

Do you pay taxes?

Yes, but to the IRS, a non-governmental entity



Are you held accountable to laws you break (if you are caught)?


I don't have a problem abiding within the normal limits of the law, many of which are enforced to insure the safety of others


Do you work for a business, or own a business, that is regulated by the government?


No, but mate is


Do all of these laws and regulations conform to your moral code?

yes, fairly well, so far so good


Do you have an opinion about the war?


Yes, feel that there is good and not so good coming from it


Do you know anyone who has served in the military overseas?

yes, my father


Do you have an opinion about immigration?


yeah, I think we're paying back Mexico for using their oil, not in peso's but in immigrants, Barter system.


We're all influenced by government, especially those who don't give it a second thought. 'Give to Ceasar' meant don't use God as an excuse to hoard money. Ceasar prints the cash, Ceasar taxes the cash. Give it back - it's worthless. Ashes to ashes.


You're right, if we become reactionary - obsessing about the government and living in fear of the government, then we give the government influence over our hearts and minds.

BUT, if you are aware of the sphere of every government's influence, then you can make more informed decisions for yourself.

Peace -

in the USA we are the govt.
and if we don't like how we are running things
we can change it
it's a good use of our free will


That's a pretty lie, but a lie nonetheless.

in the USA we are the govt.
and if we don't like how we are running things
we can change it
it's a good use of our free will


That's a pretty lie, but a lie nonetheless.

our govt. is of, by and for the people
so, how did I lie?

It's a paradox that will never be fully understood.


Why do you say it will never be fully understood?


Free will/choice vs destiny/fate. It's a paradox. Paradoxes are not meant to be solved. Hense, life is the ultimate paradox.

I wonder if at this point do we need to define terms.

When we talk about the will are we talking about fate, or are we talking about destiny. To me these three things are different.

as I see it,

The will is the action of our desire, it creates our fate and determines the length of our struggle towards destiny.

Destiny is our end product the accumulation of all our existance, fate is what results from the use of our will, it is how close we get to our true destiny within this life time.


I think that your definitions of fate and destiny are interesting, but I tend to use fate and destiny synonymously. Even by your definitions, the only difference between fate and destiny seems to be actualization (i.e. the completion of fate, shaped by will and action = destiny)

in the USA we are the govt.
and if we don't like how we are running things
we can change it
it's a good use of our free will


That's a pretty lie, but a lie nonetheless.

our govt. is of, by and for the people
so, how did I lie?


Well, again, that's rhetoric and not reality.

For starters, not every person can run for office (and no, I'm not simply referring to convicts and juveniles). Not every person can be elected to office. Independent and third party candidates are marginalized, because they do not have the party machine behind them. Candidates unable to raise money are not included on ballots. Candidates without the support of business cannot be voted into office. Candidates without media support cannot be voted into office.

Furhtermore, representatives (the electoral college) vote in our president and vice president, not the people. In 2000, the presidency was essentially decided in the courts, clearly not by the popular vote. Again, we are not a democracy, but a republic. A republic is governed by representatives. A democracy is governed by populous.

One example of how the government is not by the people: in DC, citizens voted in referendum to relax penalties on marijuana. Despite the expressed will of the people, congress stepped in and exercised 'federal authority' to overturn this referendum. You may agree with Congress' decision, you may not. But the exercise of government was clearly not by the people.

Do you pay taxes?
Yes, but to the IRS, a non-governmental entity
The IRS is only a collection agency. Your taxes still go to the US Government.


Are you held accountable to laws you break (if you are caught)?
I don't have a problem abiding within the normal limits of the law, many of which are enforced to insure the safety of others
So anti-privacy laws don't bother you? They may not, but that's a shame. Because laws change, but a precedent is being established. And precedent is nearly everything in the courts.


Do you know anyone who has served in the military overseas?
yes, my father
So if a relative had been injured or killed, wouldn't the government's foreign policy have had a direct influence on your life?


Very reasonable.

your examples only reflect the fact
that we the people
have given our power to others
we can only blame ourselves for that
support Ron Paul
use your freedom

" Free will doesn't exist. Thought is the product of government, parental imprinting, advertising, media manipulation.

Show me a person who has been raised in a vacuum and I'll show you a free man!"


In a sense, you are correct. But once one recognizes these influences that person is able to 1) reduce their exposure to these influences, 2) be aware of their physical and emotional reactions to them, and 3) learn to proceed in life making decisions that are neither mindless nor reactionary. By doing so you remove the authority these outside influences once had over you. This is the exercise of free will. The capacity of free will was always present, but one must learn to use it.

Those who practice mindfulness - those who reveal heaven - operate in a place outside of these influences.