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When the air runs out...

 
Sol-tari  (OP)

User ID: 79903417
Australia
01/12/2021 06:15 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
Maybe pass this on to them for me

[link to papers.ssrn.com (secure)]

Thank you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


Not a great help when oxygen is required.

But hopefully someone in the medical services takes note
 Quoting: Sol-tari


Oxygen is not needed to halt the infection.
American doctors discovered early on intubation killed patients quicker yet uk intubates (which is not even a proper word but a new label) as many as they can and then reports 1000 dead in a day?

Wake the fuck up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


No, oxygen does not halt the infection.

It allows people to breath when their lungs are struggling, increasing oxygen saturation.
Wanderer
Anonymous Coward
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Russian Federation
01/12/2021 06:15 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
But surely they have given the antidote to those that must. Thanks GLP, this part is for the conspiracy theory. :)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79807589


ok, the conspiracy theory has to be analyzed more and time will prove right, lol, because the whole scene of events seems very paranoid and can only be explained by darkness and light, we take out the superficial if the word is correct, part , and we replace it with not being paranoid but totally logical, cause they have found already in those deep labs for biological weapons how the specific mRNA can cause this and the other and what it cause to those asymptomatic and when to those not infected and then to those vaccinated and so they have also made the antidote, which they were kind enough to do it all the important figures on air so to persuade the rest to do the vaccine.

That above is the explanation. Thanks GLP. :)
Anonymous Coward
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Russian Federation
01/12/2021 06:17 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
Maybe pass this on to them for me

[link to papers.ssrn.com (secure)]

Thank you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


Not a great help when oxygen is required.

But hopefully someone in the medical services takes note
 Quoting: Sol-tari


Oxygen is not needed to halt the infection.
American doctors discovered early on intubation killed patients quicker yet uk intubates (which is not even a proper word but a new label) as many as they can and then reports 1000 dead in a day?

Wake the fuck up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


No, oxygen does not halt the infection.

It allows people to breath when their lungs are struggling, increasing oxygen saturation.
 Quoting: Sol-tari

Actually, oxygen under the view of intubation, does more harm than good, but the guidelines say that they have to be intubated and they get also money for each intubation.

Intubation is not needed in most of the cases, it only makes everything worst.
Sol-tari  (OP)

User ID: 79903417
Australia
01/12/2021 06:18 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


Not a great help when oxygen is required.

But hopefully someone in the medical services takes note
 Quoting: Sol-tari


Oxygen is not needed to halt the infection.
American doctors discovered early on intubation killed patients quicker yet uk intubates (which is not even a proper word but a new label) as many as they can and then reports 1000 dead in a day?

Wake the fuck up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


No, oxygen does not halt the infection.

It allows people to breath when their lungs are struggling, increasing oxygen saturation.
 Quoting: Sol-tari

Actually, oxygen under the view of intubation, does more harm than good, but the guidelines say that they have to be intubated and they get also money for each intubation.

Intubation is not needed in most of the cases, it only makes everything worst.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79807589


Have some information to back that up?
Wanderer
Anonymous Coward
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United States
01/12/2021 06:18 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
Give them Nitrous Oxide
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 79807589
Russian Federation
01/12/2021 06:20 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


Oxygen is not needed to halt the infection.
American doctors discovered early on intubation killed patients quicker yet uk intubates (which is not even a proper word but a new label) as many as they can and then reports 1000 dead in a day?

Wake the fuck up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


No, oxygen does not halt the infection.

It allows people to breath when their lungs are struggling, increasing oxygen saturation.
 Quoting: Sol-tari

Actually, oxygen under the view of intubation, does more harm than good, but the guidelines say that they have to be intubated and they get also money for each intubation.

Intubation is not needed in most of the cases, it only makes everything worst.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79807589


Have some information to back that up?
 Quoting: Sol-tari


Not without being chased by the whole System and found deleted by covid next day.
IfYouInsist

User ID: 41011373
United States
01/12/2021 06:26 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


You need to distinguish between 'good' and 'useful.' A person you and likely I would refer to as good is actually useful, just as the people we would refer to as evil is harmful. But goodness is a matter of birth--ie, nobility. It's a ruling class designation that applies only to itself. Insisting on people being useful as them being good not only glorifies slavery and wrt self-sacrifice an early death, but reinforces slavery, since if a person isn't good, they are evil, and so you end up punishing them for not being useful. All in service of those who are good by birth, and never cease to be so no matter what they do. Again: why bother? All the arguments have been made.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


I guess our debate breaks into a simple split.

Those you speak of are not in alignment, therefore all are.

I disagree.

And I don't paint everything with the same brush due to the actions of select few
 Quoting: Sol-tari


It is too rare in group behavior for these things not to be reinforced. Supporting humanity per se supports these dynamics. You speak of human goodness as if human goodness were the point. It isn't, not from the standpoint of culture, society, moral systems, or interpersonal relationships.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Yes, a number of humans merely follow programming - eventually most think about it.
But much in the way hundreds of years ago it was the morale thing to burn the witch and cheer, or kill and abduct numbers of a neighbour tribe, ideas around good and bad change.
And that's the first time I've said anything of goodness during this exchange.
If the leaders are teaching bad maths, blame the leaders.
Don't yell at the kids because their math is bad.
 Quoting: Sol-tari


All these things still happen; often, you don't even need to call them different things, as many feel compelled to do. Still rarer than the societies or groups which don't do these things are those that do whose members reflect upon them and find themselves to have been mistaken.

Children go down with their parents, because parents own their children. Just because somebody's got to be the bad guy in order to be the good guy doesn't mean that anyone actually will. The job of the centurions is filled, with piles of applications still waiting to be read. As is the job of Caesar. As is the job of Pilate. As is the job of the mob preparing to shout 'crucify him.' No one wants the single job that is actually necessary here. If you say that this is because people are selfish, well, they are about to be taught a lesson for it that history indicates quite clearly they aren't built to learn.
Anonymous Coward
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Australia
01/12/2021 06:45 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
Maybe pass this on to them for me

[link to papers.ssrn.com (secure)]

Thank you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


Not a great help when oxygen is required.

But hopefully someone in the medical services takes note
 Quoting: Sol-tari


Oxygen is not needed to halt the infection.
American doctors discovered early on intubation killed patients quicker yet uk intubates (which is not even a proper word but a new label) as many as they can and then reports 1000 dead in a day?

Wake the fuck up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


No, oxygen does not halt the infection.

It allows people to breath when their lungs are struggling, increasing oxygen saturation.
 Quoting: Sol-tari


I find your lack of comprehension and reading skills substandard and insufficient to this task....like most Australians.
Sol-tari  (OP)

User ID: 79903417
Australia
01/12/2021 06:45 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


I guess our debate breaks into a simple split.

Those you speak of are not in alignment, therefore all are.

I disagree.

And I don't paint everything with the same brush due to the actions of select few
 Quoting: Sol-tari


It is too rare in group behavior for these things not to be reinforced. Supporting humanity per se supports these dynamics. You speak of human goodness as if human goodness were the point. It isn't, not from the standpoint of culture, society, moral systems, or interpersonal relationships.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Yes, a number of humans merely follow programming - eventually most think about it.
But much in the way hundreds of years ago it was the morale thing to burn the witch and cheer, or kill and abduct numbers of a neighbour tribe, ideas around good and bad change.
And that's the first time I've said anything of goodness during this exchange.
If the leaders are teaching bad maths, blame the leaders.
Don't yell at the kids because their math is bad.
 Quoting: Sol-tari


All these things still happen; often, you don't even need to call them different things, as many feel compelled to do. Still rarer than the societies or groups which don't do these things are those that do whose members reflect upon them and find themselves to have been mistaken.

Children go down with their parents, because parents own their children. Just because somebody's got to be the bad guy in order to be the good guy doesn't mean that anyone actually will. The job of the centurions is filled, with piles of applications still waiting to be read. As is the job of Caesar. As is the job of Pilate. As is the job of the mob preparing to shout 'crucify him.' No one wants the single job that is actually necessary here. If you say that this is because people are selfish, well, they are about to be taught a lesson for it that history indicates quite clearly they aren't built to learn.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Chuckle

If people such as those your describe did not exist, those practices would be much more common.
But at certain times, humanity does reflect.

Parents own their children?
Mate, they don't own me.
Can't speak for your relationship, or how you'd consider your children.

And just look around the board mate, or the world.
Plenty step up to the position, or martyr themselves in the cause of thru various ways
Wanderer
Sol-tari  (OP)

User ID: 79903417
Australia
01/12/2021 06:46 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


Not a great help when oxygen is required.

But hopefully someone in the medical services takes note
 Quoting: Sol-tari


Oxygen is not needed to halt the infection.
American doctors discovered early on intubation killed patients quicker yet uk intubates (which is not even a proper word but a new label) as many as they can and then reports 1000 dead in a day?

Wake the fuck up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


No, oxygen does not halt the infection.

It allows people to breath when their lungs are struggling, increasing oxygen saturation.
 Quoting: Sol-tari


I find your lack of comprehension and reading skills substandard and insufficient to this task....like most Australians.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


Solshoo
Wanderer
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 76257518
Australia
01/12/2021 06:47 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


Oxygen is not needed to halt the infection.
American doctors discovered early on intubation killed patients quicker yet uk intubates (which is not even a proper word but a new label) as many as they can and then reports 1000 dead in a day?

Wake the fuck up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


No, oxygen does not halt the infection.

It allows people to breath when their lungs are struggling, increasing oxygen saturation.
 Quoting: Sol-tari

Actually, oxygen under the view of intubation, does more harm than good, but the guidelines say that they have to be intubated and they get also money for each intubation.

Intubation is not needed in most of the cases, it only makes everything worst.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79807589


Have some information to back that up?
 Quoting: Sol-tari


That question from an inferior intelligence would actually be funny if people were not actually being murdered by modern medicine....deliberately.
Sol-tari  (OP)

User ID: 79903417
Australia
01/12/2021 06:51 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


No, oxygen does not halt the infection.

It allows people to breath when their lungs are struggling, increasing oxygen saturation.
 Quoting: Sol-tari

Actually, oxygen under the view of intubation, does more harm than good, but the guidelines say that they have to be intubated and they get also money for each intubation.

Intubation is not needed in most of the cases, it only makes everything worst.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79807589


Have some information to back that up?
 Quoting: Sol-tari


That question from an inferior intelligence would actually be funny if people were not actually being murdered by modern medicine....deliberately.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


Whatswant

Oh look, someone has learned how to use insults.

Come back when you've got some actual info to present
Wanderer
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 76257518
Australia
01/12/2021 06:55 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...

Actually, oxygen under the view of intubation, does more harm than good, but the guidelines say that they have to be intubated and they get also money for each intubation.

Intubation is not needed in most of the cases, it only makes everything worst.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79807589


Have some information to back that up?
 Quoting: Sol-tari


That question from an inferior intelligence would actually be funny if people were not actually being murdered by modern medicine....deliberately.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


:Whatswant:

Oh look, someone has learned how to use insults.

Come back when you've got some actual info to present
 Quoting: Sol-tari


That was a scientific paper I posted.

Duh.
IfYouInsist

User ID: 41011373
United States
01/12/2021 06:55 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


It is too rare in group behavior for these things not to be reinforced. Supporting humanity per se supports these dynamics. You speak of human goodness as if human goodness were the point. It isn't, not from the standpoint of culture, society, moral systems, or interpersonal relationships.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Yes, a number of humans merely follow programming - eventually most think about it.
But much in the way hundreds of years ago it was the morale thing to burn the witch and cheer, or kill and abduct numbers of a neighbour tribe, ideas around good and bad change.
And that's the first time I've said anything of goodness during this exchange.
If the leaders are teaching bad maths, blame the leaders.
Don't yell at the kids because their math is bad.
 Quoting: Sol-tari


All these things still happen; often, you don't even need to call them different things, as many feel compelled to do. Still rarer than the societies or groups which don't do these things are those that do whose members reflect upon them and find themselves to have been mistaken.

Children go down with their parents, because parents own their children. Just because somebody's got to be the bad guy in order to be the good guy doesn't mean that anyone actually will. The job of the centurions is filled, with piles of applications still waiting to be read. As is the job of Caesar. As is the job of Pilate. As is the job of the mob preparing to shout 'crucify him.' No one wants the single job that is actually necessary here. If you say that this is because people are selfish, well, they are about to be taught a lesson for it that history indicates quite clearly they aren't built to learn.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Chuckle

If people such as those your describe did not exist, those practices would be much more common.
But at certain times, humanity does reflect.

Parents own their children?
Mate, they don't own me.
Can't speak for your relationship, or how you'd consider your children.

And just look around the board mate, or the world.
Plenty step up to the position, or martyr themselves in the cause of thru various ways
 Quoting: Sol-tari


These things stopped happening in the areas they did because tastes changed and new victims were found. The name changes, but the general outline stays the same. As for parents and children, I don't know if you've got a Parent-Teacher Association meeting where you live, but I've heard from the teachers how the interactions go, and it is certainly more on the parents' side than the teachers that children fail. And after the parents, it is usually the community they belong to and that family's relative place in it. This is how societies work, for better or for worse.

As for martyrs, we weren't talking about martyrs in a general sense. There are many martyrs for causes that aren't even important. Given the apparent gravity of the situation, more than a martyr is called for here, and I'm telling you why the soil isn't right for that kind of flower.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 76257518
Australia
01/12/2021 06:56 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
Oh look!
Another retard with only two brain cells to rub together for communication purposes!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 76257518
Australia
01/12/2021 06:59 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


Yes, a number of humans merely follow programming - eventually most think about it.
But much in the way hundreds of years ago it was the morale thing to burn the witch and cheer, or kill and abduct numbers of a neighbour tribe, ideas around good and bad change.
And that's the first time I've said anything of goodness during this exchange.
If the leaders are teaching bad maths, blame the leaders.
Don't yell at the kids because their math is bad.
 Quoting: Sol-tari


All these things still happen; often, you don't even need to call them different things, as many feel compelled to do. Still rarer than the societies or groups which don't do these things are those that do whose members reflect upon them and find themselves to have been mistaken.

Children go down with their parents, because parents own their children. Just because somebody's got to be the bad guy in order to be the good guy doesn't mean that anyone actually will. The job of the centurions is filled, with piles of applications still waiting to be read. As is the job of Caesar. As is the job of Pilate. As is the job of the mob preparing to shout 'crucify him.' No one wants the single job that is actually necessary here. If you say that this is because people are selfish, well, they are about to be taught a lesson for it that history indicates quite clearly they aren't built to learn.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Chuckle

If people such as those your describe did not exist, those practices would be much more common.
But at certain times, humanity does reflect.

Parents own their children?
Mate, they don't own me.
Can't speak for your relationship, or how you'd consider your children.

And just look around the board mate, or the world.
Plenty step up to the position, or martyr themselves in the cause of thru various ways
 Quoting: Sol-tari


These things stopped happening in the areas they did because tastes changed and new victims were found. The name changes, but the general outline stays the same. As for parents and children, I don't know if you've got a Parent-Teacher Association meeting where you live, but I've heard from the teachers how the interactions go, and it is certainly more on the parents' side than the teachers that children fail. And after the parents, it is usually the community they belong to and that family's relative place in it. This is how societies work, for better or for worse.

As for martyrs, we weren't talking about martyrs in a general sense. There are many martyrs for causes that aren't even important. Given the apparent gravity of the situation, more than a martyr is called for here, and I'm telling you why the soil isn't right for that kind of flower.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


You both actually sound like you are touching each other’s penis.
IfYouInsist

User ID: 41011373
United States
01/12/2021 07:01 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


All these things still happen; often, you don't even need to call them different things, as many feel compelled to do. Still rarer than the societies or groups which don't do these things are those that do whose members reflect upon them and find themselves to have been mistaken.

Children go down with their parents, because parents own their children. Just because somebody's got to be the bad guy in order to be the good guy doesn't mean that anyone actually will. The job of the centurions is filled, with piles of applications still waiting to be read. As is the job of Caesar. As is the job of Pilate. As is the job of the mob preparing to shout 'crucify him.' No one wants the single job that is actually necessary here. If you say that this is because people are selfish, well, they are about to be taught a lesson for it that history indicates quite clearly they aren't built to learn.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Chuckle

If people such as those your describe did not exist, those practices would be much more common.
But at certain times, humanity does reflect.

Parents own their children?
Mate, they don't own me.
Can't speak for your relationship, or how you'd consider your children.

And just look around the board mate, or the world.
Plenty step up to the position, or martyr themselves in the cause of thru various ways
 Quoting: Sol-tari


These things stopped happening in the areas they did because tastes changed and new victims were found. The name changes, but the general outline stays the same. As for parents and children, I don't know if you've got a Parent-Teacher Association meeting where you live, but I've heard from the teachers how the interactions go, and it is certainly more on the parents' side than the teachers that children fail. And after the parents, it is usually the community they belong to and that family's relative place in it. This is how societies work, for better or for worse.

As for martyrs, we weren't talking about martyrs in a general sense. There are many martyrs for causes that aren't even important. Given the apparent gravity of the situation, more than a martyr is called for here, and I'm telling you why the soil isn't right for that kind of flower.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


You both actually sound like you are touching each other’s penis.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


That's funny, because we couldn't be farther apart.
Sol-tari  (OP)

User ID: 79903417
Australia
01/12/2021 07:01 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


Have some information to back that up?
 Quoting: Sol-tari


That question from an inferior intelligence would actually be funny if people were not actually being murdered by modern medicine....deliberately.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


Whatswant

Oh look, someone has learned how to use insults.

Come back when you've got some actual info to present
 Quoting: Sol-tari


That was a scientific paper I posted.

Duh.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


PVP-I disinfectant has been shown to be safe when administered to the nasal cavity and as a mouthwash. We propose a protocolised intra-nasal and oral application of PVP-I for both patients and their attendant healthcare workers (HCWs) during the current COVID-19 pandemic to help limit the spread of SARS-CoV-2 from patients to healthcare workers and vice versa

Useful for reducing spread.

Not so much for those requiring oxygen.
Wanderer
Sol-tari  (OP)

User ID: 79903417
Australia
01/12/2021 07:06 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


Yes, a number of humans merely follow programming - eventually most think about it.
But much in the way hundreds of years ago it was the morale thing to burn the witch and cheer, or kill and abduct numbers of a neighbour tribe, ideas around good and bad change.
And that's the first time I've said anything of goodness during this exchange.
If the leaders are teaching bad maths, blame the leaders.
Don't yell at the kids because their math is bad.
 Quoting: Sol-tari


All these things still happen; often, you don't even need to call them different things, as many feel compelled to do. Still rarer than the societies or groups which don't do these things are those that do whose members reflect upon them and find themselves to have been mistaken.

Children go down with their parents, because parents own their children. Just because somebody's got to be the bad guy in order to be the good guy doesn't mean that anyone actually will. The job of the centurions is filled, with piles of applications still waiting to be read. As is the job of Caesar. As is the job of Pilate. As is the job of the mob preparing to shout 'crucify him.' No one wants the single job that is actually necessary here. If you say that this is because people are selfish, well, they are about to be taught a lesson for it that history indicates quite clearly they aren't built to learn.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Chuckle

If people such as those your describe did not exist, those practices would be much more common.
But at certain times, humanity does reflect.

Parents own their children?
Mate, they don't own me.
Can't speak for your relationship, or how you'd consider your children.

And just look around the board mate, or the world.
Plenty step up to the position, or martyr themselves in the cause of thru various ways
 Quoting: Sol-tari


These things stopped happening in the areas they did because tastes changed and new victims were found. The name changes, but the general outline stays the same. As for parents and children, I don't know if you've got a Parent-Teacher Association meeting where you live, but I've heard from the teachers how the interactions go, and it is certainly more on the parents' side than the teachers that children fail. And after the parents, it is usually the community they belong to and that family's relative place in it. This is how societies work, for better or for worse.

As for martyrs, we weren't talking about martyrs in a general sense. There are many martyrs for causes that aren't even important. Given the apparent gravity of the situation, more than a martyr is called for here, and I'm telling you why the soil isn't right for that kind of flower.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Not everyone is interested in victims mate.
Oh you're correct in that regard - teachers, parent, society dynamics.
But when those such as you describe are in charge, how they act echos down to the people - be it conscious knowledge of said events or not.

I'm sure if you were to go back, such would be said by people in those times.
But sometimes you're not their to reach everyone.
Just enough
Wanderer
IfYouInsist

User ID: 41011373
United States
01/12/2021 07:30 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


All these things still happen; often, you don't even need to call them different things, as many feel compelled to do. Still rarer than the societies or groups which don't do these things are those that do whose members reflect upon them and find themselves to have been mistaken.

Children go down with their parents, because parents own their children. Just because somebody's got to be the bad guy in order to be the good guy doesn't mean that anyone actually will. The job of the centurions is filled, with piles of applications still waiting to be read. As is the job of Caesar. As is the job of Pilate. As is the job of the mob preparing to shout 'crucify him.' No one wants the single job that is actually necessary here. If you say that this is because people are selfish, well, they are about to be taught a lesson for it that history indicates quite clearly they aren't built to learn.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Chuckle

If people such as those your describe did not exist, those practices would be much more common.
But at certain times, humanity does reflect.

Parents own their children?
Mate, they don't own me.
Can't speak for your relationship, or how you'd consider your children.

And just look around the board mate, or the world.
Plenty step up to the position, or martyr themselves in the cause of thru various ways
 Quoting: Sol-tari


These things stopped happening in the areas they did because tastes changed and new victims were found. The name changes, but the general outline stays the same. As for parents and children, I don't know if you've got a Parent-Teacher Association meeting where you live, but I've heard from the teachers how the interactions go, and it is certainly more on the parents' side than the teachers that children fail. And after the parents, it is usually the community they belong to and that family's relative place in it. This is how societies work, for better or for worse.

As for martyrs, we weren't talking about martyrs in a general sense. There are many martyrs for causes that aren't even important. Given the apparent gravity of the situation, more than a martyr is called for here, and I'm telling you why the soil isn't right for that kind of flower.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Not everyone is interested in victims mate.
Oh you're correct in that regard - teachers, parent, society dynamics.
But when those such as you describe are in charge, how they act echos down to the people - be it conscious knowledge of said events or not.

I'm sure if you were to go back, such would be said by people in those times.
But sometimes you're not their to reach everyone.
Just enough
 Quoting: Sol-tari


Look at the post on "Finnish nightmares" that's still on this page. The purpose of this kind of joke isn't to be a mea culpa, but a way for them to dissipate the feeling that something is *wrong* here, and to subtly signal to all those that would attempt to change the culture that despite the people themselves knowing its shortcomings, such attempts are wholly unwelcome. That is the point: you versus US.

And here's where we differ. When responsibility or sin or guilt or shame or what have you come into play, yes, there are individuals. But only then. At all other times, we are speaking about races, ethnicities, religions, tribes, clans, families, pecking orders--in short, what make people feel comfortable. Should this shortcoming about Finnish society prove to be something more than the funny quirk it's made out to be--a fatal flaw in the worst-case scenario--this ends up being the fault of everyone in the society, irrespective of whatever factor, human, viral, extra-terrestrial, was positioned to exploit it effectively.

If you want, say, a German or a Japanese to say "We screwed up," that requires a Dresden or Hiroshima--nothing less. Otherwise then, yes, people *are* interested in victims, because that's how people do things. It is something to fault them for, otherwise people wouldn't joke about genuine flaws as though they were simply foibles. They feel uncomfortable about it simply by comparing themselves with other societies, no gadflies needed.

It is these two facets of human societies which make stepping up to help them both an ineffective and undesirable thing to do. You're asking some poor jerk to sacrifice their ego, inclusive of their feeling of vulnerability, their reputation, their autonomy, their privacy, and even their right to speak candidly on their experience, just so that the societies composed of these putative 'individuals' do not have to. This applies doubly for the elites of those societies. It's a moral hazard.

My question in all this is: why? Why are you sticking up for the mob, even to the extent of positing them as individuals, and rational ones into the bargain?

Last Edited by IfYouInsist on 01/12/2021 07:32 AM
IfYouInsist

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01/12/2021 07:31 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...


Last Edited by IfYouInsist on 01/12/2021 07:31 AM
Anonymous Coward
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01/12/2021 07:35 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
Wow. A real thinker. High on it’s own intelligence...

I’d like to say I’d never seen such a thing...what a novelty!!
Sol-tari  (OP)

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01/12/2021 07:37 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
...


Chuckle

If people such as those your describe did not exist, those practices would be much more common.
But at certain times, humanity does reflect.

Parents own their children?
Mate, they don't own me.
Can't speak for your relationship, or how you'd consider your children.

And just look around the board mate, or the world.
Plenty step up to the position, or martyr themselves in the cause of thru various ways
 Quoting: Sol-tari


These things stopped happening in the areas they did because tastes changed and new victims were found. The name changes, but the general outline stays the same. As for parents and children, I don't know if you've got a Parent-Teacher Association meeting where you live, but I've heard from the teachers how the interactions go, and it is certainly more on the parents' side than the teachers that children fail. And after the parents, it is usually the community they belong to and that family's relative place in it. This is how societies work, for better or for worse.

As for martyrs, we weren't talking about martyrs in a general sense. There are many martyrs for causes that aren't even important. Given the apparent gravity of the situation, more than a martyr is called for here, and I'm telling you why the soil isn't right for that kind of flower.
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Not everyone is interested in victims mate.
Oh you're correct in that regard - teachers, parent, society dynamics.
But when those such as you describe are in charge, how they act echos down to the people - be it conscious knowledge of said events or not.

I'm sure if you were to go back, such would be said by people in those times.
But sometimes you're not their to reach everyone.
Just enough
 Quoting: Sol-tari


Look at the post on "Finnish nightmares" that's still on this page. The purpose of this kind of joke isn't to be a mea culpa, but a way for them to dissipate the feeling that something is *wrong* here, and to subtly signal to all those that would attempt to change the culture that despite the people themselves knowing its shortcomings, such attempts are wholly unwelcome. That is the point: you versus US.

And here's where we differ. When responsibility or sin or guilt or shame or what have you come into play, yes, there are individuals. But only then. At all other times, we are speaking about races, ethnicities, religions, tribes, clans, families, pecking orders--in short, what make people feel comfortable. Should this shortcoming about Finnish society prove to be something more than the funny quirk it's made out to be--a fatal flaw in the worst-case scenario--this ends up being the fault of everyone in the society, irrespective of whatever factor, human, viral, extra-terrestrial, was positioned to exploit it effectively.

If you want, say, a German or a Japanese to say "We screwed up," that requires a Dresden or Hiroshima--nothing less. Otherwise then, yes, people *are* interested in victims, because that's how people do things. It is something to fault them for, otherwise people wouldn't joke about genuine flaws as though they were simply foibles. They feel uncomfortable about it simply by comparing themselves with other societies, no gadflies needed.

It is these two facets of human societies which make stepping up to help them both an ineffective and undesirable thing to do. You're asking some poor jerk to sacrifice their ego, inclusive of their feeling of vulnerability, their reputation, their autonomy, their privacy, and even their right to speak candidly on their experience, just so that the societies composed of these putative 'individuals' do not have to. This applies doubly for the elites of those societies. It's a moral hazard.

My question in all this is: why? Why are you sticking up for the mob, even to the extent of positing them as individuals, and rational ones into the bargain?
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Because the mob is made of individuals.
And while it may showcase the saying "a mob is only is smart as it's dumbest member" at times,
There's also mobs that get together to provide aid during a disaster, go searching for someone missing, or simply to "pray" for a better world - tho the form of that may differ.
Wanderer
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01/12/2021 07:43 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Because you can never ‘purchase’ me.
Anonymous Coward
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01/12/2021 07:44 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Because you can never ‘purchase’ me.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


And I am quite common.

And yet....you don’t have power nor influence nor wealth....to purchase the rest of us.
IfYouInsist

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01/12/2021 08:05 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
 Quoting: IfYouInsist


Because you can never ‘purchase’ me.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


And I am quite common.

And yet....you don’t have power nor influence nor wealth....to purchase the rest of us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76257518


'Purchase'? I think that is the characteristic way this argument has gotten flipped wherever it has played out. And that has been often. The person who doesn't want to be a bagman for something foreseeable gets accused of wanting to control those he refuses to help. No one can simply be tired of upside-down world and the endless parade of its victims. Whatever the cost to them personally in doing so, no one's attempt to seclude themselves from goings-on in which they will not even have a say is seriously respected by anyone. But everyone always wants to debate on this, and will even bait the person into it, despite the fact that this only burns the time to which the lover of argument has already decided the person has no right!

What use would I have for you, that I would want to purchase you? Your lockstep, rank-closing rationalizations of insanity are something from which I have demonstrably distanced myself...and this is counted as a sin. I did not invent the concepts of sin and redemption, mass surveillance and mind-reading technology, the threat of nuclear war, racism, compulsory service and sterilization. The mob's enemy is itself, no one else, especially not the person who does not want to join it.

Or is this an attempt to guilt? It will not work, because the grounds for the obligation simply aren't there: no affection, neighborliness, respect of boundaries, actions indicating the constant claim of common destiny, support, or any of the other innumerable marks of kinship. Only obligations backed by threats and fear.

So finally we arrive at the basic statement that one person pays and must pay for a ticket another gets for free, with the reason why being so obviously indicated by the lack of any sign of kinship, and the grounds for appeal must invariably hinge upon the soul. How convenient! How cheaply my service would be purchased by you, when you have the privilege to say that I cannot buy what others get for free! Monsters...I'm surrounded by monsters.
Sol-tari  (OP)

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01/12/2021 08:42 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
bait

lowqualitybait
Wanderer
IfYouInsist

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01/12/2021 08:45 AM
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Re: When the air runs out...
bait

lowqualitybait
 Quoting: Sol-tari


It's personalized. Bait led me to this site, so why not take it seriously? I'm feeling ill, and need to lay down in a few here. So sick of these fake choices and the fake free will that is used to prop it up. Just glad I have my failsafe if things get bad. As an experience, this has been unjust and miserable.





GLP