Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved

You must be one of those so-called Christians who claim that miracles never happen - or the Flood didn't happen - or the Exodus didn't happen.

Thread: Noah - The Ark and the Flood - Evidence Proof Bible History

Thread: Updated - New Videos / Evidence of the Biblical Exodus in Saudi Arabia - Hebrews / Mt Sinai More

Thread: Have you ever witnessed a Miracle? I have, more than once. Post it here, if so. I'll start...

Thread: Testimonies of Miracles Angels etc...proof of God / Yahuah & Son Jesus / Yeshua

Paul said "Is Christ divided". You should KNOW the verse.

As scripture states - Jesus said "Follow ME".

Paul was the first to teach the resurrection of Christ? NONSENSE.
You need to wake up - get a grip - and read scripture.

"resurrection" in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

Jesus - before He was killed.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Peter - on the day of Pentecost - Acts 2

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

So what?

Where does Jesus tell folks to..."follow Peter"...."follow Paul"...."follow John"????

He doesn't. Jesus said "Follow ME".

ONE Gospel - ONE church / body of Christ - neither Hebrew nor Greek.

Christ should NOT be "divided".

Where was Paul called the "high pastor"? Where is the phrase used in the KJV? It doesn't exist.

The Messianic Hebrews were kicked out of the synagogues.
That's why the Apostles met at folk's houses. CLEARLY seen in Acts. Paul too.

Ironic that Paul continuously returned to Jerusalem for Hebrew holidays.
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"Pastors" in the KJV. Several times by Jeremiah - said by Paul only once.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

"Deacons" in the KJV.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

History of "deacons".

[link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]

It is generally assumed that the office of deacon originated in the selection of seven men by the apostles, among them Stephen, to assist with the charitable work of the early church as recorded in Acts 6.

"Bishops" in the KJV - said once by Paul

[link to www.blueletterbible.org (secure)]

History of "bishops"

[link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]

I don't follow ANY man nor church nor denomination.

"Not the same message"? Have you EVER LOOKED at scriptures to CHECK that "claim"?
-----------------------------

1. Belief that Jesus is the Son of God? Check

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


2. Repentence? Check

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.


3. Commandments? Check

1 Thessalonians 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.


4. Doing the Father's Will? Check

Ephesians 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 06/03/2020 12:21 AM

Despite what Dispenstationalist would like you to believe Death, Burial and Resurrection for salvation of the world were also taught up into acts while Paul was still persecuting Christians.

I gave you scripture on pg 24 of this very thread. Perhaps you did not read it.


Act 15:7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Act 15:11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

1Pe 1:9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.

1Pe 1:10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,

Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


Here is what Paul said on the matter.

Eph 3:5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

Apostles is plural and would include Peter and the other Apostles.



Now for Death, Burial, Resurrection.

Joh 3:15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

Joh 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Joh 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

Joh 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

Joh 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Mat 20:28 "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Mar 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Mat 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mar 8:31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Luk 9:22 saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day."[/i

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 06/06/2020 07:39 PM

A quick look up on [link to biblehub.com] and Strongs KJV finds the following below.

Pastor is used elsewhere in the bible. It is translated from the word for shepherd which was used everywhere in the OT and NT.

Pastor from Strongs 4166 poimen – properly, a shepherd ("pastor" in Latin)

Bishop is used elsewhere in the bible. It is in 1Peter and in Acts. They just translated it to a different word in both instances. Only in the letters to Paul did they translate it to Bishop.

Bishop - Strongs 1985 episkopos a superintendent, an overseer


Deacon is used elsewhere the New Testament. It is used many times in Matthew, Mark and John. There are 29 occurrences of this word in the New Testament.

Deacon - Strongs 1249 diakonos a servant, minister

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 06/07/2020 11:55 AM

I'm not interested in what Strongs says... I'm interested in SCRIPTURE...

what I'm waiting for is SCRIPTURE where Jesus, or ANY of the 12, went to a pastor or deacon... or where ANY one of the 12 mention the body of Christ, or where they AREN't under the law...... was Caiaphas a pastor or high priest?

or give me the name of just 1 "Christian" church, like Pauls church, that has Rabbi's, or a high priest, and keep ALL the ceremonial holidays and laws required under Jud*sm... conversely name me 1 synagogue where they have pastors and deacons and DON'T keep these things...

do you go to a church or Synagogue... and why not both, if they teach the same things...

where's the SCRIPTURE?

More PROOF that you are merely a MOUTHPIECE for Paulinism.

You SURELY are NOT a "student of scripture".

[link to www.biblestudytools.com (secure)]

"Strong's Concordance combines the King James Bible version with Greek and Hebrew lexicons. The Exhaustive version is the most complete, easy-to-use,..."

Even then - the King James Bible IS NOT PERFECT in it's translations.

1 John 5:7 is a GLARING example of this as it doesn't exist in the earliest manuscripts.

...still no SCRIPTURE to back up your fantasy, I'm waiting. The OPINIONS of a lost person mean nothing to me, show me SCRIPTURE... weren't you the one wanting SCRIPTURE to back up rapture... how ironic

What "version" of scripture?
What translation?

Jesus said "Follow ME".

You folllow a misinterpreted Paul ONLY theology.

IT DOES NOT MATTER.

Paul taught the SAME things that Jesus and the Apostles taught.

PROOF?

1. Repent

Matthew 4:17 (KJV) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:15 And saying*, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe* the gospel.

Paul - Repentence? Check

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.


2. Believe

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Paul - Belief that Jesus is the Son of God? Check

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


3. Obey / Keep the Commandments

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Paul - Commandments? Check

1 Thessalonians 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.


4. Do the Father's Will

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Paul - Doing the Father's Will? Check

Ephesians 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;


5. Forgive others so the Father will forgive you.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Paul - Forgiveness

2 Corinthians 2:7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.


6. Be "born again".

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Paul doesn't use the exact phrase- but he clearly understands what happens.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Peter.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
-------------------

Paul didn’t know much about Jesus?

Galatians 3:16 — Jesus was born a Hebrew
Galatians 4:4 — Jesus lived under Hebrew Law
Romans 1:3 — Jesus was from the house of David
1 Corinthians 9:5 — Jesus had brothers
1 Corinthians 15:7 — One of his brothers was James
1 Corinthians 15:7 — Jesus had twelve disciples
1 Corinthians 15:7 — Some of Jesus’ disciples had wives
2 Corinthians 8:9 — Jesus was poor
Philippians 2:5 — Jesus was a servant who acted with humility
2 Corinthians 10:1 — Jesus acted with meekness and gentleness
Romans 15:3 — Jesus didn’t act on his own behalf, but was accused by others
1 Corinthians 5:7 — Paul alludes to the Passion week
Romans 6:6 — Jesus was crucified
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15 — Jesus crucifixion was brought on by Hebrew instigation
Romans 4:25 — Paul speaks of Jesus’ death
Romans 6:4, 8:29; Col. 2:12 — Paul talks about the nature of the resurrection.

Paul’s knowledge of Jesus’s teachings:

1 Corinthians 7:10-11 — About divorce and remarriage
1 Corinthians 9:14 — Ministers being paid wages
Romans 13:6-7 — Paying taxes
Romans 13:9 — We are to love our neighbors as ourselves
Romans 14:14 — Ceremonial cleanliness
1 Thessalonians 4:15 — Paul said to be vigilant in light of Jesus’ second coming
1 Thessalonians 5:2-11 — The second coming would be like the thief in the night
1 Corinthians 7: 10;9:14;11:23-25 — Paul refers to Jesus’ words.

and STILL waiting on a "Christian" church with rabbi's and high priests ...

GREAT... it should be super easy to show me where Jesus or the 12 mention the body of Christ... or a pastor or deacon

Strongs is scripture. It is referencing the original greek. They are the same words in kjv translated differently. Paul and the apostles used the very same words that men commissioned by the King of England translated. The scripture is the greek. Your scripture that is translated has bias. Once again Paul and the apostles wrote and used the same words.

Do I know you? Are you in other rapture threads? Perhaps quit using anonymous. Consider yourself blocked.

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 06/07/2020 01:55 PM

SO F'n WHAT?

"Body of Christ" = Believers = "Followers of Christ" = "disciples of Christ" = "the church".

ALL the SAME thing.

Archduke already SCHOOLED your azz about "pastor" etc...

You ignorance is astounding.

I see you even deleted my reply to you. I was replying to freedom who has an account and can freely edit replies. Your point is moot. We are in different time zones in a 24/7 internet. My peak time is not your peak time and vice versa.

are you assuming that, or do you have the scripture to back it up... show me the scripture

yeah, Paul and HIS apostles ... show me scripture where Jesus went to a pastor

and STILL waiting on a "Christian" church with rabbi's and high priests ...

ever been to a Messianic spam service, I have,... they still call them rabbi's and priest... never once heard the term pastor or deacon... I guess they just started using those terms again, after they didn't for awhile...LOL

Last Edited by freedomsnotfree1 on 06/07/2020 04:18 PM

Paul did not use the words Pastor, Bishop or Deacon. Those are words in the English language, not the Greek. Those were translated to English. Did Paul speak English?

They do use words like shepherd, elder and ministers.


The only place I find searching KJV for the word pastor is in Ephesians 4:11. Once again this is a translated word. The original word in the Greek scriptures from Biblehub and switching to KJV Strongs Addition is Greek Strongs 4166 poimen. Change biblehub to KJV Strongs and click on the word pastor and you will see it means shepard and Jesus did use this term a lot.

This word poimen that was translated to pastor was used 18 times in the NT.

This is from the biblehub.com page after clicking on the word pastor.

Strong's Greek 4166
18 Occurrences

It was used in the following verses.

Matthew 9:36
Matthew 25:32
Matthew 26:31
Mark 6:34
Mark 14:27
Luke 2:8
Luke 2:15
Luke 2:18
Luke 2:20
John 10:2
John 10:11 (Twice)
John 10:12
John 10:14
John 10:16
Esphesians 4:11 (Translated to pastor)
Hebrews 13:20
1Peter 2:25

Here is how John 10:11 is translated by KJV

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Here is a reference for John 10:11 in the Greek at biblehub.com

[link to biblehub.com (secure)]

Here is how Esphesians 4:11 is translated by KJV

Esp 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Here is a reference for Esp 4:11 in the Greek at biblehub.com

[link to biblehub.com (secure)]


Pastor and Shepherd are the exact same word used in the original Greek scriptures.

"Paul's apostles"?????

"Paul went to a pastor"????



Paul went to synagogues wherever he went.

Damascus Acts 9:20
Salamis Acts 13:5
Antioch Acts 13:14
Iconium Acts 14:1
Thessalonica Acts 17:1
Berea Acts 17:10
Athens Acts 17:16
Corinth Acts 18:4
Ephesus Acts 18:19

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 06/07/2020 07:15 PM

[link to www.gotquestions.org (secure)]

Question: "How is the church the Body of Christ?"

Answer: The phrase “the Body of Christ” is a common New Testament metaphor for the Church (all those who are truly saved). The Church is called “one body in Christ” in Romans 12:5, “one body” in 1 Corinthians 10:17, “the body of Christ” in 1 Corinthians 12:27 and Ephesians 4:12, and “the body” in Hebrews 13:3. The Church is clearly equated with “the body” of Christ in Ephesians 5:23 and Colossians 1:24.

3rd person Trinity is the cosmic MIND. MInd is always in the spirit.. always... there is animals and plant life ONLY because of 3rd person Trinity.. the only way to remove the holy spirit from this world is to blow the planet to smitherines using nuclear bombs..

And if that happens... humans carrying a special chip on this world will be evacuated off the planet... and only them.

Then the planet will be turned into a plasma ball.

So to prove pre trib false it only takes one thing. At the last trump, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then those who are alive will be called up. The trumpets are during the tribulation. But before the bowls of wrath. We are not appointed for wrath. Unfortunately we will go through some of trib. The wrath of god is on unbelievers and that is at the very end. So fortunately, we will get out before that happens.

Compare Revelation 6 & 8....

6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

8:12 And the fourth angel sounded (trumpet), and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.


...to these 3 Gospel acct's where Jesus states that AFTER tribulation...

Matthew 24

29 Immediately* after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other*.


Mark 13

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Luke 21

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 06/07/2020 07:47 PM

NOPE the tribulation period hasn't even begun, so NO, its not at the end as you falsely claim over and over.

How can "defend" a false doctrine (rapture) when it was only "discovered" within the past 200 yrs?


Then again, Christians who Claim Christ seek HIM on their own terms. Not much familiarity with John ch 17; which, incidentally IS Jesus' Witness of The Born-Again Life...

Pretty plain in verse 15 where Jesus Asks Father, (all of John 17 is a Prayer!), not to remove HIS People from the world, but to "Preserve them against all evil".


As an Ezekiel 36:26-27 Born-Again, my witness is that John 17 IS True in every facet Jesus Shares with HIS People.


Think God The Father can't Deliver You From Evil?
Think there is no way to go through the Great Trib without dying? I mean, that's really what you're afraid of; isn't it????

If you'd been willing to Trust God Fully with all you are and all you ever will be, you Would Have died unto this world and Received your New Heart Of HIS Flesh. You would KNOW and DO HIS Will. You would sin no more... All there and Witnessed Plainly in Ezekiel 36:26-27.

But... You won't act on Christ's Witness. In John 3:7 "Marvel not that I Say unto you: Ye MUST Be Born-Again!"

Just as John 17 is the only Witness Jesus Ever Gave As A Prayer; John 3:7 is the ONLY Verse where The Lord uses MUST as a directive. Ye MUST Be Born-Again...

But, you're not. You don't Trust God enough...

But let's argue and rationalize bullshit falsehoods like "rapture".



These ARE The Final Moments. Before America is "gone in one hour", Father's 1st Angel of Rev 14:7-9 will Give Witness which closes The Way Unto The Father and ends The Age Of Faith.


Waiting on "proofs" isn't gonna work. Coming Unto The Father is all about Trusting HIM Fully, Manifesting your Faith and Coming Unto HIM By Christ Jesus...

You gonna Claim HIM without having made your surrender?

Gonna be some very disappointed Christians... but ain't that the whole Witness to the church of Laodicea? "Because you are lukewarm, I will spew thee forth from MY Mouth" Jesus Says of Laodiceans... "I would that thou wert either hot or cold".... Cold, because HE wouldn't even have to consider you, but with being lukewarm, HE makes the effort... Effort you never made... God is always so fair and perfect!

So many Witnesses of rejection that Laodiceans never notice...


Soon, it will simply be Too Late.

To everything there is a season....


Maranatha!!!

You do realize that what I said is correct? Not sure what point you are making towards me. I said pre trib is not a thing. Then you said same thing I think. We do not go through bowls of wrath. If you think that we do, I can try if you like to show you why you are wrong. All in all we should be in unity and not argue about things like this matter. We would do better preaching the gospel(which is not end times timeline).