Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved

This is the tribulation man. Get used to it.

Speaking to the christians Paul tells them do not be decieved!
He states Jesus will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

So who is this MAN OF LAWLESSNESS in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 ???

1. It is not one man because verse 7 says (For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work)
So this MAN OF LAWLESSNESS existed in the first century and would continue until Jesus Christ Yeshua returns coming ect... so he spans 2000 years so far until Yeshua returns!

2. This MAN OF LAWLESSNESS teaches rebellion and deception with signs powers false wonders ect he is a TEACHER!

3. Verse 4 says he will oppose and exalt himself... This MAN OF LAWLESSNESS loves power position authority he says look at me look at me look at me!!!

4. He seats himself in the temple of god...
What is the temple of god?
(1 Cor 3:16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?)
Christians the Church ect are the temple of God!
This MAN OF LAWLESNESS is a false decieving teacher who exalts himself makes himself a leader of christians...

5. Verse 6 says in Pauls time this MAN OF LAWLESSNESS was being restrained? How?
In Pauls time the apostles could heal the sick do miracles in the name of Jesus so nobody would question their teachings because the holy spirit showed that God was with them ect... So this MAN OF LAWLESSNESS these lying decieving self exalted leaders teachers was being restrained because the apostles were still alive... But as the apostles died the MAN OF LAWLESSNES was no longer under restraint!!! He could now spread his decietful rebelious teachings!!! And exalt himself in God's church congregation!!!

6. In verse 8 Jesus Christ Yeshua comes to annihilate THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS by the majesty of His arrival.

7.In verses 9 and 10 this MAN OF LAWLESSNESS decieves with power, sign, and false wonder, and with every wicked deception.

8. In verse 10 we are shown how not to be decieved by this MAN OF LAWLESSNESS we must really LOVE TRUTH!!! Loving the truth in God's word will stop you from being decieved by these false teachers leaders who exalt themselves in God's Christian Congregation!

9. In verse 11 it says any who dont love truth but love lies will recieve a powerful delusion from God! Because they delighted in wickedness!!!

The man of lawlessnes is all lying decieving antichrist apostate leaders, teachers, christians, churches, or brands of christianity ect... who exalt themselves and make themselves leaders ect... Antichrist in the greek language has two meanings, antichrist means (in place of) a (substitute) these antichrists put themselves in the place of Jesus Christ they say YOU ARE SAVED THROUGH OUR BRAND OF CHRISTIANITY!!!
We are saved through Jesus Christ not the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS!!! OR NOT ANY CHURCH!!!

((((((((The man of lawnessness can be any christian any church or brand of christianity who teaches lies deception rebellion exalts themselves makes a following for themselves ect))))))))

2 Thess 2:1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.

9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.

I would say the 144,000 are true Christians. It does not matter what race or ancestry a Christian comes from. In this case I do think the 144,000 are truly descendants from Israel as Revelation says. The Old testament talks of an end time remnant of Israel.

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Jeremiah 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

Thank you for contributing,

Is this is defense of the pretrib or posttrib? I know many that use this for both.

As for the rest. I do think the Church ** Cough **, ** Cough **, Pope, is a form of antichrist and that the RCC have corrupted the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

All of the confusion about what is going to happen when Jesus returns is because of the flood of bad doctrines to confuse and obfuscate the matter the last century.

The antichrist's kindgom has done this because it wants to keep as many Christians as it can in the dark hoping they will be counted foolish virgins and be forced to endure the hour of testing when the antichrist will be unrestrained.

Here are some simple facts (which are elaborated in the video in my signature):

- The "great tribulation" has been taking place the lats 2,000 years.
- The seven seals of Revelation is the world's history being allowed to go forth on God's timing
- The first 5 seals have already been opened, and Jesus plainly stated that the 6th seal will be the definitive seal which will let Christians know that He is about to return.

See the video below for a clear prophetic timeline that is built plainly from New Testament scriptures.

I have done similar studies in the video. I am glad you did not link the video as a youtube so it is constantly quoted. It is also palatable at 24 minutes and not hours like everyone else posts. A different perspective on a preterist view. Not sure I agree with everything but definitely a different angle.

Here is a thread I did on the Woes of Revelation which can be used as time stamps or markers to take the different symbol of Revelation and put it together. Others have built similar timelines based on the woes.

Thread: Study of Woe, Revelation, Resurrection, Harpazo and Wrath of God

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 05/31/2020 12:02 PM

Really?

Where in scripture does "true Christian" equate to "virgin not defiled by women"?

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

NOPE.

We're barely at the "beginning of sorrows".

No Seals have been opened yet.

This is when the 2 witnesses are raptured along with everyone else. They are dead, resurrected and then caught up to Christ. The dead in Christ go first which clearly the 2 witnesses were dead and they are definitely sealed with the Holy Spirit and preach for Christ.

Rev 11 has it all.

1) Dead in Christ
2) A voice of a archangel
3) Resurrection
4) Ascended to Heaven


1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Well that did not take long for her to once again delete my reply in her thread. She really does not like scripture or the truth.

Did the Israelites know that YHWH would take them under the sea to deliver them from the Egyptians.

Why do rapture tards think that the only way to get through the tribulation is to fly away. YHWH has done it many times In many ways before.

Other then being caught up in the air to meet Christ in the end times it never happened that I know of. Everyone else was saved on earth.

Right here...

2 Corinthians 11:2

“For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

King James Version (KJV)

The Spiritual "aer" (greek) is all around us, not up in the sky.

Yes but scripture says caught up in the clouds.

Revelation 20

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Here we have the FIRST resurrection - (Is not the rapture a resurrection of the dead in Christ? One reason the term rapture can cause many to forget the dead in Christ rising is a HUGE event)

The context of this passage has Tribulation saints (those killed by the beast) included in the First resurrection

Now if the rapture (which includes a massive resurrection of Christians (~2000 years’ worth) is not the first resurrection what was? The Word says first, not second.

A famous Canadian Greek scholar (in his 80s at the time read this passage in the Greek. He was amazed he never saw this prior- the First resurrection included tribulation saints. Interesting indeed.

I know some will say we are not subject to wrath - and that is true - but cannot God protect His own from the wrath even while here? I think so!

For the Rev 20:1-5 verses- I see the first resurrection as the main one (big one including all dead in Christ) as the Greek for "first" is "prótos": definition: first, before, principal, most important.

If this is the "most important" along with the "first" meaning I see this as including the most Christians as in the Bride of Christ being raised which would indeed make it "most important".

Thayer's Greek Lexicon on this Greek term (used in all places, not just this one) Pending on the grammar this Greek word also can mean "first of two"

So, the resurrection of the bride of Christ (rapture - as it includes those living being "caught up") is indeed the "most important or absolute first". For such a big deal I think it would be mentioned - and this seems like the most logical explanation due to the original usages in the Greek.

And you THINK that verse has to do with the 144,000????

UTTER NONSENSE.

"Rightly dividing the word of truth" is what you Paulinist's scream whenever someone starts to disprove your NONSENSE.

Is Christ divided?

NOPE.

But according to THEM...

Jesus and the Apostles for the Hebrews
Paul for the gentiles.

I've already disproven that with scripture.

One Gospel.
One church / body of Christ.
Neither Hebrew nor Greek.


1. Jesus never said that Believers will miss Tribulation. Luke 21:36 is taken out of context for the "rapture".

2. Both Peter and John wrote epistles AFTER Paul wrote his. A "rapture" - IF it had been revealed to Paul - would have been mentioned by them. Yet they say NOTHING about "it".

3. There's no mention of a "rapture" in the Revelation "sequence of events". The verse to the church in Philadelphia is doesn't mean a "rapture" of all Believers before Tribulation. An event that "stupendous" would SURELY have been mentioned by Jesus - to John.

4. The idea of a "rapture" being "hidden" in the scriptures for 1800+ years is therefore erroneous. It's a deception to "divide" the body of Christ. "Paul ONLY for gentiles" divides the body of Christ.

Nope. Won't do any of that. I'll just drop a 1-star for anyone calling himself a Christian who doesn't want to hear the truth and only wants a one-sided presentation given. You can find 4-5 verses supporting something OTHER THAN a pre-trib rapture, for every one you think can be twisted to support it.

The Pre-Trib Rapture hoax along with the "eternal security" scam are the two key reasons modern-day Christians have only a form of godliness, and will be sadly disappointed and led away to slaughter when they find out the rapture is not going to float them to heaven on a cloud of glory, and that, instead, they will be asked to suffer for Christ.

The 144,000 is symbolic of the whole house of Israel. That includes the church, and the righteous from Israel. It is noted that, if the tribes listed, the 2 missing are Dan and Ephraim. It was on their land that the pagan bulls were set by Jereboam. The message is that the 144,000 are those who are pure in God’s sight.

I am not pre-trib. I just want to hear their side based on scripture and not opinion.

Early Church Fathers and the Rapture

While there are dissenting views, this list compiles a time-line from Christ to early church fathers to near current Christian thinking on the rapture timing - most of these authors lifespan overlapped each other.

Jesus Christ (O-33) said: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven....and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and
great glory." (Matthew 24:29-30).

John (6-101) a disciple of Jesus Christ, wrote: "And I saw as it were a sea of glass...and them that had gotten the victory over the beast (antichrist) and over his image, and over his mark, and over
the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass..." (Rev.15:2).

Barnabas (40-100) knew John and all 12 of Jesus disciples, and traveled with Saint Paul to evangelize among the gentiles, wrote:"The final stumbling block approaches...for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger....then the evil one [Antichrist] may find no means of entrance...."
(Epistle of Barnabas, 4).

Polycarp (70-168) Johns apostle and knew Barnabas, wrote:"He comes as the judge of the living and the dead."
(Epistle to the Philippians, II).

Justin Myrtyr (100-167) a contemporary of Polycarp, wrote:"The man of apostasy [Antichrist], who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the
earth against us the Christians..." (Dialogue with Trypho, 110).

Irenaeus (138-202) Polycarps apostle and knew Justin Myrtyr, wrote: "And they [the ten kings who will arise] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight" (Against Heresies, V,26).

Tertullian (150-220) a contemporary of Irenaeus, wrote: “The souls of the martyrs are taught to wait [Rev.6:9,10,11]...that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God..."
(On the Resurrection of the flesh, 25).

Hyppolytus (158-240) a contemporary of Tertullian, wrote:"The one thousand two hundred and three score days (the last half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the church..." (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).

Cyprian (200-258) a contemporary of Hyppolytus, wrote: "The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of the Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..." (Epistle, 55, 1).

Victorinus (240-303) a contemporary of Cyprian, wrote:"...the times of Antichrist, when all shall be injured."(Commentary on the Appocalypse of the Blessed John, VI, 5).

Lactantius (242-330) a contemporary of Victorinus, wrote: "And power will be given him [Antichrist] to desolate the whole earth for forty two months..." (Divine Institutes, VII, 17).

Athanasius (293-373) a contemporary of Lactantius, wrote:"...they have not spared Thy servants, but are preparing the way for Antichrist." (History of the Arians, VIII, 79).

Ephrain the Syrian (306-373) a contemporary of Athanasius, wrote: "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." (Sermo Asceticus, I).

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386) a contemporary of Ephrain, wrote: "The church declares to you the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive...it is well that, knowing these things, thou
shouldest make thyself ready beforehand."
(Catechetical Lectures, 15, 9).

Jerome (340-422) a contemporary of Cyril of Jerusalem, wrote:"I told you that Christ would not come unless Antichrist had come before." (Epistle 21).

Chrysostom (345-407) a contemporary of Jerome, wrote:"...the time of Antichrist...will be a sign of the coming of Christ..."(Homilies on II Thessalonians 2:2-3)

Augustine (354-430) a contemporary of Chrysostom, wrote:"But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12:1-13], even half asleep can not fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, for a short time, assail the church..." (The City of God, XX, 23).

Venerable Bede (673-735) wrote: "[The Church's triumph will] follow the reign of Antichrist."(The Explanation of the Apocalypse, II, 8).

Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153) wrote: "There remains only one thing--that the demon of noonday [Antichrist] should appear, to seduce those who still remain in Christ..."(Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16).

Roger Bacon (1214-1274) wrote: "...because of future perils [for the Church] in the times of Antichrist..." (Opus Majus, II, p. 634).

John Wycliffe (1320-1384) wrote: "Wherefore let us pray to God that He keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming on all the world, Revelation 3:10."(Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wycliffe, D.D. p.155)

Martin Luther (1483-1546) wrote:"[The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church..."
(Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).

Menno Simons (1496-1561) a contemporary of Martin Luther, wrote: "...He [Jesus] will appear as a triumphant Prince and a victorious King to bring judgment. Then will those who persecute
us look upon Him..." (Complete Writings...p. 622).

John Calvin (1509-1564) a contemporary of Menno Simons, wrote: "We ought not to follow in our inquiries after Antichrist, especially where such pride proceeds to a public desolation of the Church." (Institutes, Vol. 2, p. 411).

John Knox (1515-1572) a contemporary of John Calvin), wrote:"...the great love of God towards His Church, whom He pleased to forewarn of dangers to come, so many years before they come to pass...to wit, the man of sin, the Antichrist the ***** of Babylon."(The History of the Reformation..., I, p. 76).

John Fox (1516-1587) a contemporary of John Knox, wrote:"...that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church...to disturb the whole Church of Christ..."(Acts and Monuments, I).

Daniel Whitby (1638-1726) wrote: "...after the fall of Antichrist, there shall be such a glorious state of the Church...so shall this be the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the Mark of the Beast..." (A Paraphrase and Commentary, p. 696).

Matthew Henry (1662-1714) a contemporary of Daniel Whitby, wrote: "Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace shall be kept by Christ in an hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10] ."
(Commentary, VI, p. 1134).

Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758) a contemporary of Matthew Henry, wrote: "...continuance of Antichrist's reign [when the Church is persecuted] did not commence before the year of Christ 479..." (A history of the Work of Redemption, p. 217).

John Newton (1725-1807) a contemporary of Jonathan Edwards, wrote: "Fear not temptation's fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. Thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [of] Rev 3:10, will soon be past." (The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol. II, p. 152).

George Muller (1805-1898) wrote:"The scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostasy shall have taken place, and the man of sin shall have been revealed..."
("Mrs. Mueller's Missionary Tours and Labours, p. 148).

R. Trench (1807-1886) a contemporary of George Muller, wrote:"...the Philadelphian church...to be kept in temptation, not to be exempted from temptation..." (Seven Churches of Asia, p. 183).

Carl F. Keil (1807-1888) a contemporary of R. Trench, wrote:"...the persecution of the last enemy Antichrist against the church of the Lord..." (Biblical Commentary, Vol. XXXIV, p. 503).

S. P. Tregelles (1813-1875) a contemporary of Carl F. Keil, wrote: "The Scripture teaches the Church to wait for the manifestation of Christ. The secret [pre-trib] theory bids us to expect a coming before any such manifestation."(The Hope of Christ's Second Coming, p. 71).

Nathaniel West (1826-1906) a contemporary of S. P. Tregelles,wrote: "[The Pre-Trib Rapture] is built on a postulate (assume to be true), vicious in logic... repudiated by the early Church..."
(The Apostle Paul and the "any moment" Theory, p. 30).

Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910) a contemporary of Nathaniel West, wrote: "He will keep us in the mist of, and also from, the hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]."(The Episles of John, Jude and the Book of Revelation, p. 266).

M. Vincent (1834-1922) a contemporary of Alexander Maclaren, wrote: "The preposition 'from' implies, not a keeping from temptation, but a keeping in temptation [Revelation 3:10].."
(Word Studies..., p. 466).

Grattan Guinness (1835-1910) a contemporary of M.Vincent,wrote: "...the Church is on earth during the action of the Apocalypse..." (The Approaching End of the Age, p. 136).

Theodor Zahn (1838-1933) a contemporary of Grattan Guinness,wrote: "He will preserve...at the time of the great temptation [Rev.3:10]." (Zahn-Kommentar, I, p. 305).

I.T. Beckwith (1843-1936) a contemporary of Theodor Zahn, wrote: “The Philadelphians...are promised that they shall be carried in safety through the great trial [Rev. 3:10], they shall
not fall." (The Apocalypse of John, p. 484).

Robert Cameron (1845-1922) a contemporary of I.T. Beckwith,wrote: "The Coming for, and the Coming with, the saints, still persists, although it involves a manifest contradiction, two Second comings which is an absurdity." (emphasis mine)
(Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p. 639).

Evacuation is not the same as rapture you fool, and if it is then Noah Ark was called rapture?.

And here the shortest rapture wisdom and understanding:

I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken [raptured], and the other shall be left.

Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken [raptured], and the other left.

Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken [raptured], and the other left.

And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles [zwo & elites] be gathered together. - Luke 17:34-37


If you had any common sense then you'll know that to become the son of perdition, one must have a lawless daddy, yes?.

And though I am not in the world, these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Father most holy, preserve them in your name, those whom you have given to me, so that they may be one, even as we are one.

While I was with them, I preserved them in your name. I have guarded those whom you have given to me, and not one of them is lost, except the son of perdition, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled. - John 17:11-12

Thread: So You Wanted To Know Who The Son Of Perdition Is?

"And then [G H.W 'Nebuchadnezzar' Bush] the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming [as the last great Anti-Christ]. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how [ZWO derp state] Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the [fake news media] lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." - Thessalonians 2:8-12

Keep this thread civil or I will invoke the thread ban.

Yet the passage DOES NOT say they were "cleansed".

They were literal virgins in their human lives.

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The Lord comes with clouds, look it up.

Every characteristic of the 144000 are those of true Christians.

Too bad it doesn't fit your Tim Lahaye fantasies.

Revelation is not to be taken completely literally.

A monster will not come out of the ocean.

Get it?

I DO NOT support the "rapture" doctrine.

The 144,000 are virgins - NOT Christians that were "cleansed" of their sins.

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Jesus had a specific reason for calling them "virgins who had NOT been defiled by women".

That's about a literal as it can get.

Get a grip dude.

And who says a monster won't literaly come out of the ocean?

Don't put Father God nor His Son in a box - claiming that YOU know EXACTLY what the scripture means.