Why being a Tribulation Saint is a dangerous second best choice to being Raptured.

No, it doesn't.

Think about it. Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice, once for all.

What sacrifice is going on right now, and has been ongoing, other than the Satanic abortion initiative and some pagan animal sacrifice in some regions.

Mankind in the World sacrifice their unborn children on a daily basis for the love of the world.

If abortion is struck down, what exactly is that but removal of an ungodly sacrifice?

The sacrifice within scripture doesn't claim to be a Godly thing.

LET ME REPEAT THAT....

The sacrifice within scripture doesn't claim to be a Godly thing.

Nor can it be, because any sacrifice today, would negate the purpose for Jesus giving His own life. It would make His death in vain. If and when the sacrifice is taken away, who do you think will take offense?

Why do you think world leaders are pushing for abortion funding? Even if America strike abortion down, the Globalist, will enshrine it as a Global right. That is what Agenda 2030/21 is all about.

Look at ~Jazz~ thread pinned right now. Realize what it means. Realize just how close we are!

A barren womb is a desolation. Same sex couples, can't produce offspring either. So is Bill Gates eugenics initiative of sterilization.

BILL GATES AND EUGENICS: THE WORLD NEEDS FEWER PEOPLE [link to tricentennial.us (secure)]

March 28, 2020 BILL GATES AND EUGENICS: THE WORLD NEEDS FEWER PEOPLE
Software billionaire Bill Gates, who previously has advocated the reduction of the human population through the use of vaccines, and his wife Melinda marked the 100th year since the First International Eugenics Congress in London with a “family planning” summit with abortionists and the United Nations. [link to tricentennial.us (secure)]

Maybe it is YOU who can't discern what scripture means.

Some of what I say is speculation, but it is based upon actual events, which are unfolding right now.

I could be wrong. I admit that.

The rapture can happen, as that is what happened to Enoch, Elijah, Yahshua(Jesus), and those who were resurrected with Him. There have been raptures before, and there will be again. And it will happen because Yahshua said it will. The only question is that of it's timing.

The rapture does make sense as the two judgments are not the same. The 'Judgment Seat of Christ', the Bema, will be a judgment in heaven of the believers who were raptured. It will not be a judgment of sin, but a judgment of one's works after they were redeemed.

2 Cor 5:8-9
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

"We" being believers in Christ. We have to give an account of what we have done for Christ since becoming believers, whether it be good or bad.

The 'Great White Throne of Judgment' on the other hand will be for those who are not redeemed, who have died without the Salvation of Christ. And it WILL be a judgment of sin for those who reject Christ.

Revelation 20: 11-15 The Final Judgment

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

At this time, believers are not dead but are already living in their immortal bodies, and have been so for 1000 yrs already. So they cannot be part of the dead that are judged. And they have already been judged by Christ at the Bema seat. They cannot be judged a 2nd time, as that would be double-jeopardy. Also our fate as believers is not determined by our works, as we have been redeemed by Christ. It was the work of His blood on the cross that redeemed us. Our original works are dead, forgiven, and forgotten. We believers will not be judged by them, lest Christ's sacrifice for us would be in vain and a waste of His Holy life. Everyone at that trial will be unbelievers who didn't have the salvation of Christ, who had died in their sins. Their names will not be in the Lamb's Book of Life, and they will be found guilty and thrown into the Lake of Fire.

You see those are two separate events with two separate groups of people. The first group are the believers, the second are the unbelievers, and the two groups do not share the same fate. EVERYONE will stand before God, yes. Some will stand at the Bema Seat as believers who are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. And others will stand at the Great White Throne of Judgment later in shame as unbelievers who died in their sins.

When the rapture happens, Yahshua will bring the spirits of the dead in Christ back with Him from heaven to earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

He will be in the clouds, and the recently returned spirits of the dead will be translated into their resurrected bodies.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the resurrection of the dead moment. And then the resurrected dead (returned spirits united with new resurrected bodies) go up into the air to meet Yahshua in the air. And THEN those believers who remain will be translated into their resurrection bodies, and go up in the air after the resurrected dead, to meet them and our Lord in the air. This all happens at the same event, and in the "twinkling of an eye".

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be *caught up* together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Who is "we" here? Both dead and alive believers.

And then ALL believers will return with Yahshua to heaven as He said we would.

John 14: 1-3
1. Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Where did Yahshua go to prepare a place for His bride, His believers? - to His Father's House in heaven.
What will He do after that? - He will come back for us. That is the rapture.
After He comes back for us, what will He do? - He will TAKE us somewhere.
Where will He take us? - to be with Him where He is.
Where is He? - in His Father's House in heaven.
Yahshua told us he is preparing a place for us in heaven. And that He will return to get us and take us back to His Father's House in heaven so that we can be with Him there. This is Yahshua's teaching to us on His rapture of us at a future time.

After this, the events of the Tribulation happen: Yahshua opens the 7 Seals unleashing their judgments, then the 7 trumpet judgments happen, then the 7 bowl judgements happen, etc. All of these things are God's judgments being meted out to an unbelieving world. All of this is the wrath of God, designed to test an unbelieving Israel and punish a hateful world. It's for "those who dwell on the earth", not for believers.

But we believers are not appointed to be here during the time God's wrath.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

And that is our Blessed Hope!

Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Yahshua(Jesus) Christ

Don't get fixated by the 'Last Trump'. Did you know that the 7th trumpet of the 7 trumpet judgements is not the Last trump that will happen?

There will be another at the 2nd Coming of Christ at the Battle of Armageddon. This will be at least 3.5 yrs after the 7th Trumpet judgment of the tribulation.
Then there's the trumpet blowing that will happen every year after that, of the 1000yr Millennial Reign of Christ at the annual Feast of Atonement holidays.
There will be many more trumpets after the "7th Trumpet Judgement", so it's best not to get stuck on that point.
Historically, the "Last Trump" is also the last trumpet blow of the series of trumpet blows of the Yom Teruah High holy day. The "Last Trump" of the return of Christ might reference that.
Then there's the "Last Trump" done in ancient Israel to call in everyone for any holy feast day. That is a possibility too.

Ultimately, we know the rapture will happen. We just squabble over the timing of it's occurrence. Whenever we think it will happen, one thing is abundantly clear, we must each be ready for it before it happens. And we need to work to get as many as will listen to also prepare for it. Our hearts need to belong to God, and our lamps need to be trimmed with plenty of oil to keep up our midnight watch until our master returns for us.

Peace

Since the dead proceed the living, and that doesn't occur until Jesus returns, then how can the living proceed the dead?

Follow scripture and you have your answer. I posted it above.

I am NOT hating on this thread, or the OP.

I very much believe that many people believe in a Pre or mid Trib rapture, but 1 Thessalonians 4 is clear that the dead are raised first.

I am attempting to show you through scripture how a Rapture scenario isn't possible, since those who would be raptured are assumed be very much alive.

Those alive in a rapture scenario would precede the dead.

However, the scripture I share, is clear this doesn't happen.

Anonymous Coward 76613374 you claim;

"The 'Great White Throne of Judgment' on the other hand will be for those who are not redeemed, who have died without the Salvation of Christ. And it WILL be a judgment of sin for those who reject Christ."

If you look at scripture, how do you rationalize verse 12 and 15 below with the statment I copied from your post above.?

Revelation 20: 11-15 The Final Judgment

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Clearly this judgment is for everyone, and happens simultaneously.

There is no pre-trib rapture! That was invented about 150 years ago.

It isn't enough to claim there isn't one.

That is why you use scripture. You must validate the claim, which I have done.

The rapture is the 1st steps in the 1st resurrection.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

We need to be resurrected in a new body to inherit the kingdom of God.

There are only two resurrections.

The tribulation saints who cannot counted by man go in the 1st resurrection.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

OP, what is your stance about Sunday worship vs The Sabbath, Christmas, Easter and celebrating birthdays?

In order to become a 'Saint', you must first become a 'Martyr'!

One small detail.

I just explained it in detail, using bible verses above.

1. Yahshua(Jesus) returns down to the clouds, the same way He left.
2. And He brings the souls of those who have died in Christ with Him, from heaven.
3. Those souls go down to earth and get resurrected bodies and fly back up to meet Him in the air.
4. THEN, those believers who are left will be translated into their immortal bodies instantly and fly up to meet both the resurrected dead in Christ + Yahshua in the air.
5. Then Yahshua will take all of us believers, both the resurrected dead and those who are still alive, with Him as His complete bride up to heaven to the place He has prepared for us.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 states that we who are still living will not precede those who have died in Christ. The dead believers will translate first, and then those living will translate second. All of this happens at the same event, in the 'twinkling of an eye'.

The understanding is that the rapture can happen at any moment, nothing has to happen first. This is the Doctrine of Imminency. And that it will happen before the Tribulation, or Daniel's 70th Week, begins. So the Bride of Christ will be raptured and in heaven for 7 yrs during the time of God's Wrath.

The point of contention is often the "last trump", as different scholars interpret that to mean different things. Pre-tribulation rapturists believe that the "Last Trump" spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is not the same as the "7th trumpet Judgement" like the Post-tribbers believe. Those are different words, with different spellings, for different things.

Due to all the things that will happen, and the order with which everything will happen, and adhering to the different rules of different dispensations, the Pre-Millennial Pre-tribulational Futurist rapture view is the only scenario that can happen without breaking the order of events of the End Times. The other views all fall short in several ways.

Better to just skip the rapture.

(0 Bible results for “rapture.”)

Raptured saints need their bodies first in the resurrection. The tribulation saints also get their bodies in the 1st resurrection. In order to be tribulation saints they need to have been in the tribulation.

At the time of the Great White Throne of Judgment, the believers in Christ will already be in their immortal bodies. They will not be a part of the group known there as "the dead."

Neither did the Apostle John see himself down there at that judgment. If it was truly a judgment for all mankind, John would himself be down there among those who were being judged, along with all the other apostles and the elect. He was not there receiving that judgement. He was outside as an observer. Neither was there any mention of ANY believer being in that group of "the dead".

The dead will be judged by their works. The redeemed will not be judged by our works as we will never be good enough to earn salvation, but salvation is a free gift of God. We only have to accept it and put our trust and faith in Christ. It is His works that cover our sins, not our own works, lest we should boast. We should be down there with the dead being judged. But God loved us so much that he made a plan for us to be exempt from THAT judgement, thank The Lord! -If we will only trust in Yahshua for the remission of our sins, we will be saved from THAT judgement.

What is the Great White Throne Judgment? The following link highlights a few different views on this subject.

[link to www.gotquestions.org (secure)]

Yahshua(Jesus) was resurrected.

Many others were resurrected at the same time.

Which resurrection where they a part of?

Many have been called saints in the bible that did not get martyred.

Is it possible that the first Resurrection already occurred?

Who were those who came out of the graves and walked among the people in Jerusalem, when Jesus was resurrected?

WERE THEY NOT ALSO RESURRECTED?

Reading scripture, the resurrected dead at this time, would not have partaken in the end time beast system by matter that they died prior to it occurring and were subsequently raised and went with Christ at that time?

Go back and read Revelation 20:4. Apply what I said to scripture and it does NOT invalidate it.

Wouldn't THEY be the first Resurrection and wouldn't THEY go with Christ and already be reigning with Him for a thousand years?

Yes because they were "caught up" or "raptured".

If you are using an English translation, you need to search for the English phrase "caught up".

If you go back to the original Greek, use the Greek word for "harpazo".

If you are looking specifically for the work "rapture", you will need to go to the Latin bible, and it'll be the Latin version of rapture, such as ‘rapiemur‘, 'raptus' or 'raeptius'.

[link to www.raptureready.com (secure)]

Skip the rarture and face the Wrath of God.

Best just to believe in Yahshua(Jesus), and then you will be fine.

The ressurection of Christ.

Then 1st resurrection of living.
Then 2nd resurrection of dead.

Revelation says the trib saint's go in the 1st resurrection. This was the resurrection of Christ.. Perhaps this is where the 24 elders come from.

I believe the true Church today could be called the Pre-Tribulation Saints. They will get raptured and recieve their immortal bodies, then will be taken to heaven for 7 yrs.

Then of those who are left behind, some will come to Christ and become Tribulation Saints. Most of them will be martyred. When Christ returns at the end of the tribulation at the Battle of Armageddon, He will bring with Him a host of angels, and the raptured Pre-trib saints, and I think the souls of those Tribulation Saints that have died during the Tribulation.

I think the tribulation Saints will be resurrected after the Tribulation at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. I think all believers and Old testament Saints will enter the Millennial Kingdom together with those mortals who were deemed "sheep" at the sheep & goats judgement.

OH PLUHHHHSSSSSSSSSSS

THIS IDIOT has been on an on an on and on and on


never ending

Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp, the last living connection to the Apostles

Irenaeus of Lyons AD 130 - 202


Chapter XXVIII 28

...And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are Saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet...


Chapter XXIX 29

And therefore, when in the end the Ekklesia shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.


My commentary of the excerpt of the above commentary.

He is referencing being caught up at the end of the Tribulation, which is easily shown by looking at more of what he says following.

Chapter XXX. 30:1-4

He begins by refuting the idea that 616 is the number of the man of sin, the wicked one

which brings us to the fourth point of this chapter.

4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition," as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."


that when this man comes we may avoid him

we, not they, tribulation saints as pre-tribbers call them




1. If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question]. For example: "When the cities" of the Gentiles "shall be desolate, so that they be not inhabited, and the houses so that there shall be no men in them and the land shall be left desolate." "For, behold," says Isaiah, "the day of the Lord cometh past remedy, full of fury and wrath, to lay waste the city of the earth, and to root sinners out of it." And again he says, "Let him be taken away, that he behold not the glory of God." And when these things are done, he says, "God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth." "And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves." For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: "And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth," And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, "Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God. O Jerusalem, put off thy robe of mourning and of affliction, and put on that beauty of eternal splendour from thy God. Gird thyself with the double garment of that righteousness proceeding from thy God; place the mitre of eternal glory upon thine head. For God will show thy glory to the whole earth under heaven. For thy name shall for ever be called by God Himself, the peace of righteousness and glory to him that worships God. Arise, Jerusalem, stand on high, and look towards the east, and behold thy sons from the rising of the sun, even to the west, by the Word of that Holy One, rejoicing in the very remembrance of God. For the footmen have gone forth from thee, while they were drawn away by the enemy. God shall bring them in to thee, being borne with glory as the throne of a kingdom. For God has decreed that every high mountain shall be brought low, and the eternal hills, and that the valleys be filled, so that the surface of the earth be rendered smooth, that Israel, the glory of God, may walk in safety. The woods, too, shall make shady places, and every sweet-smelling tree shall be for Israel itself by the command of God. For God shall go before with joy in the light of His splendour, with the pity and righteousness which proceeds from Him.

[link to www.earlychristianwritings.com]

There is a Promise of God awaiting chick tract bot

Amos 9:10

All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor go before us.


The Evil = The Affliction = Jacob's Trouble = The Great Tribulation

no escape for OP

Last Edited by 232 on 05/20/2020 09:15 PM

No, because Jesus came to fulfill the promise, by dying once for all.

This was the to fulfill the promise of salvation to all.

Salvation had come to the Gentile converts due to the in-grafting spoken of in Romans 11

Remember Peter and his dream of the unclean meat?

What does Peter say about it?

Acts 11
7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.

12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Everyone resurrected from Christ to those Millennials who get resurrected before the Great White Throne of Judgement will be a part of the First Resurrection. This is the resurrection of the just.

Those who died in their sins and are in hell right now, along with all those who die in their sins until the Great White Throne of Judgement will be a part of the Second Resurrection. That is the bad one, the one you don't want to be a part of. That is the one that ends in the Lake of Fire.

So what is your interpretation of the passages noting the dead rising first and then for the people who are living.. one will be left in the field and one taken?

So are you saying the rapture would be resurrection zero since they receive their bodies? I do not find any pre-resurrections in the bible.

I find scripture for the following three resurrections.

Resurrection of christ
Resurrection of the just(1st)
Resurrection of the unjust (2nd)

Act 24:15 "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

I agree with them being in the 1st resurrection but that would include tribulation saints.

Do you believe trib saints are in the 1st resurrection?

Simple Daily Faith & Living

Trust in the Father and the Son fully
Thank the Father for sending His Son to us
Thank Jesus for doing the Father's Will
Repent to God the Father for your sins
Give thanks for daily blessings...regardless of how simple / "ordinary" they may seem
Love others and forgive them as necessary
Pray for others and help them if possible
Read the Bible and ask Jesus or the Father for guidance concerning it
Pray / ask the Father to show HIS WILL for you to do
Share your "testimonies" of what God and Jesus have done for you