The War Against the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

I do believe in the Classical Pre-Millennial Pre-Tribulation Rapture. And I do biblically support this concept.

Thank you.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

When dealing with doctrinal issues, sometimes some simple truths are right there in the Bible in front of our noses, and it's easy for us to understand them. Other difficult truths are more challenging and require us to look at the whole chapter, book, or the bible in order to fully grasp the concepts. When any one verse dealing with a particular doctrinal issue appears to stand apart from other similar truths, we should suspect that there may be an interpretation or possibly a translation issue involved that needs further research. I believe the doctrine of the Pre-Trib rapture is one such difficult truth.

The word 'rapture' itself is not included in the English bible. But it is in the Latin Vulgate bible, written by Jerome in the early 400's AD. The word there is 'raeptius' or 'rapturo', which translated into English means 'rapture'. It is found here in the English bible:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be *caught up* together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The original Thessalonian manuscripts however were written in Greek. There were actually no 'English' words at all in the original bibles, including the word 'bible' itself, as the English language wasn't invented yet. And the original Greek word for 'rapture' is shown in English script as 'harpazo', which means 'to rapture up into the air', or to 'snatch away by force'. It was this original Greek term 'harpazo' that Jerome later translated into Latin as 'raeptius', which was later translated into English as 'rapture'. These terms all mean the same thing: 'to be caught up'.

[link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]
[link to www.raptureready.com]

Below are some reasons I believe the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine is likely to be the most Biblically accurate view:

1. Imminency. We're supposed to look, watch, and wait for Yahshua(Jesus') imminent return. Nothing has to happen before Yahshua(Jesus) returns for us. (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thes. 1:10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; 1 Peter 1:13; Jude 21) The non-Pre-Trib positions ALL require certain things to happen 1st before Yahshua(Jesus) can return. Things like the Antichrist's 7 yr peace treaty with Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount right on or next to the Muslim Dome of the Rock, the 7 Seals of Judgment, etc. These things destroy imminency.

[link to www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk]

2. Dispensation of the Tribulation. The Bible states that Daniel's 70th Week/Tribulation/Great Tribulation/Time of Jacob's Trouble/Day of the Lord/Wrath of God are all things related to God's dealing with Israel getting ready to restore it back to His grace. (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:22-44; 22:13-22) This is not a time for the Church, but a time for "those who dwell on the earth"- meaning non-Christians. (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 17:2, 8)

3. Dispensation of the Church. The Church is promised to be taken up to the Father's House. (John 14:1-3 Compare this verse with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) How can that be if the Church remains here on earth thru the 2nd Coming? Going up to meet Yahshua(Jesus) in the air at the moment He's coming down to finish off the Antichrist and his armies is not the same as the Church going up to heaven. There is no mention of Yahshua(Jesus) going back to heaven in the Bible after His 2nd Coming. And I don't think He's going to open heaven and come down with all His angels just to pick up the Church in the air, then do a mid-flight U-turn & go back up to heaven. Then grab some horses and linens for the Church. Then do another U-turn and come back immediately to finish off the Antichrist. The Bible doesn't say that.

4. Also the Church is a Mystery. (Eph. 3:1-13; 2:11-22) That means a new Truth has just been revealed. The Old Testament prophets knew nothing about it or it's role in God's plan. But they did know a lot about the Tribulation period. This is further evidence that the two ages: the Old Testament Israel era & the New Testament Church era will not overlap. Right now, the Jews and Gentiles are co-mingled in the Church, (Eph. 2-3) but this can't be when you look at God's 70 Weeks program for Israel in Daniel. The two must be separated prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week, which is the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation.

5. The Church has also been promised deliverance from the TIME of God's wrath. That means, "out of the time period" of the Tribulation. (1 Thes. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10)

6. Time Gap Needed. A time period is needed in heaven to handle some things that will take place with the Church after the rapture.

7. The Judgment Seat of Christ (or 'Bema' in Greek) needs to happen to Christians in the Church in heaven before they return with Yahshua(Jesus) to the Battle of Armageddon. (2 Corinthians 5:10) This is when they get their rewards for good Christian service (or not)

8. The Bride of Christ (the true Assembly(Church) has to be in heaven to get ready for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-10) as I mentioned earlier. They can't do this if they don't go up to heaven before the 2nd Coming.

9. The 24 Elders around the Throne in heaven appear to be very representative of the Church. If this is so, the Church must be in heaven prior to the opening of the 1st Seal of the Scroll of the Tribulation- the opening kick-off if you will. (Revelation 4:1-5:14) In the New Testament, the elders represent the Church. (Acts 15:6; 20:28) In the Old Testament, the elders were always 24 in number, and appointed by King David to represent the entire priesthood. In Yahshua(Jesus') new Millennial Kingdom, Christians will assume the title of the Priesthood. (Revelation 20:6)

10. Where are all the mortals? If all the Christians are raptured up at the 2nd Coming of Christ, who will be left to re-populate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom? All the bad guys will be gone because of the Battle of Armageddon and the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment. Raptured Christians will have immortal bodies and will no longer pro-create. (sorry) But the Bible clearly states that there will be mortal Christians who survived the cataclysm and who would carry on mortal life on earth. (Isa. 65:20-25). And, the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment would also be impossible if all the good guys were already raptured. There would be no need for a separation of the two groups of mortals. This is an impossible situation for the Post-Tribulation Rapture proponents.

11. The Presence of the Holy Spirit. The 'man of lawlessness'/Antichrist/beast is said to be held back for now. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12) The 'restrainer of evil'/Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) is at work in the Church right now and will leave with it in the Pre-Trib rapture. This will then free the Antichrist to unleash his demonic power on the world soon after, which is the first Seal of Judgment to be opened in heaven after the rapture. The Pre-Trib view is the only view that can work here.

12. Here are some comparisons between the Rapture & the 2nd Coming:

Rapture: is a translation or resurrection coming where the Lord comes FOR His Church/Bride (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and taking her to His Father's House. (John 14:3).
2nd Coming: Yahshua(Jesus) is coming WITH his saints/Church/Bride from heaven to set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth for 1000 yrs. (Rev. 19; Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31)

Rapture: is a Mystery, a newly revealed truth (1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 1:26) not known to the Old Testament prophets, and making it a separate event from anything they have foreseen. The New Testament talks about the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming.
2nd Coming: was predicted in the Old Testament. (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4) The Old Testament of Israel just talks about the 2nd Coming.

13. More comparisons between the two:

Rapture: Translation of all believers
2nd Coming: No translation of anyone

Rapture: Translated saints go up to heaven
2nd Coming: Translated saints return down to earth

Rapture: Earth is not judged at that time
2nd Coming: Earth is judged and righteousness is restored

Rapture: Imminent and sign-less
2nd Coming: Follows exact signs and days according to Daniel and Revelation prior to.

Rapture: Is for Believers only
2nd Coming: Is for everyone

Rapture: Happens before the Day of Wrath
2nd Coming: Concludes the Day of Wrath

Rapture: Has no reference to Satan
2nd Coming: Satan is bound up for 1000 yrs.

Rapture: Yahshua(Jesus) comes in the air only
2nd Coming: Yahshua(Jesus) comes down to land on the earth

Rapture: Only Christians see Him
2nd Coming: Everyone sees Him

Rapture: Tribulation then begins
2nd Coming: Millennial Kingdom begins

14. Practical Results of a Pre-Trib Rapture. Some people think the Pre-Tribbers have illusions of escapism that will destroy their witness and faith if the Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't play out. They think Pre-Tribbers don't care about anything or anyone because they think they have a 'Get out of Jail Free' card for the Tribulation. However, they might not realize that Yahshua(Jesus) will reward Christians for good service at the Judgment Seat of Christ later in heaven after the rapture. If there is no good Christian service, there may be little or no rewards waiting for them after the rapture.

The fact that Yahshua(Jesus) could return today for us should be a good motivator for living a good Christian life and doing good works for Christ.

Also, knowing that loved ones: friends and family, who aren't Christians will be left behind after the rapture to face the coming cataclysm of the Great Tribulation should be enough to motivate them to try to lead as many people as possible to Christ before it's too late.

If the Pre-Wrath or Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture view was accurate, a simple study of Daniel's 70th Week would then show you exactly when Yahshua(Jesus) is returning for the 2nd Coming. All you have to do is note when the Antichrist's 7 year peace treaty with Israel is signed, or note just when the Antichrist's abomination of desolation in the new Jewish Temple happens, and you can compute the exact day of our Lord's 2nd Coming. No imminency there. No need to always live a righteous life there. You could then just sin and sin and wait around until the last day before Christ's return and then repent and be good. Based on my understanding of the Bible, I just don't think it works like that.

And whoever said that everyone must suffer through the Tribulation to be purified?, or to do XYZ good works in the Tribulation to get saved?

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Yahshua(Jesus).
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What about everyone who has died already who didn't suffer any hardships at all? By some people's definition, they are not saved because they have suffered no great tribulation. That just doesn't make any sense. Yahshua(Jesus) said that we would be delivered from the time and hour of God's judgment to "those who dwell on the earth." His great judgment is for those who have rejected Yahshua(Jesus), not for His children. Satan has given Christians plenty of tribulation over the years, and continues to do so even today.

[link to www.persecution.com]

Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is the 'Blessed Hope!'

Titus 2:13 (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Yahshua(Jesus) Christ

Maranatha!

Peace.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.raptureme.com]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.raptureforums.com]
[link to www.raptureforums.com]
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I was going to watch this anti-Pre-Trib video to hear the speaker's points, and I did begin to watch it. But I had to stop when the speaker said there is no word 'rapture' in the bible.

I'm sure this guy is a good guy, but really I cannot accept that first objection of his as a serious attempt to debunk Pretribulationism. This shallow argument just can't be intellectually supported. A simple Greek word study on 'harpazo', and knowledge of bible translations will end that discussion immediately.

Please see my above view on the Pre-Trib Rapture and my section on the word 'rapture' in the bible for further details.

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At the highest levels, our leaders are not secular, but are actually Occultic, many Satanic even. The New World Order was planned by Satan and is being implemented by His Occultic elite globalist puppets. You may know of them through their different secret societies such as the Council of |3, the Committee of 3oo, the Bilderburg Group, the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Bohemian Grove, the Jesuits, Skull & Bones, 33 Deg. Freemasonry, Rosicrucians, Ordo Templis Orientis, Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn, the Knights Templar, The Priory of Sion, Opus Dei, etc. Many of these groups have been called collectively: The Group, The Club, The Illuminati, etc. They own the largest conglomerate corporations in the world and 99.9% of all the Central Banks of the world. Their top leaders all answer to one boss: Lucifer (aka Satan.)

The NWO is already using religion to further their secret agendas. The Catholic church, the Freemasons (yes they are a religion: Occultic Gnosticism,) New Agers and the Muslims are some examples. The Catholic church will be the vehicle that will carry the coming Antichrist, the human leader of the NWO, to power. Eventually, the Antichrist will destroy the Catholic church and make everyone worship him as god instead. This will happen halfway through the Tribulation.

Suffering is a requirement for being fully glorified. That's why the Lord spent six gruesome hours on the cross.

"Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” [Luke 24:26]

We're not exempt from suffering either, if we want to our bodies to be fully glorified when the Lord comes. The suffering we must all undergo in this present age is the suffering of self denial in order to manifest the life of Christ. This is the equivalent of nailing ourselves to the cross. That's why the Lord said:

“If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it." [Luke 9:23,24]

The suffering of rejecting sin day in day out to live a holy life as we wait for our bodies to be glorified, is what Paul was referring to when he said:

"I don’t think the sufferings we are going through now are even worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed to us in the future. The creation waits eagerly for the sons of God to be revealed; for the creation was made subject to frustration — not willingly, but because of the one who subjected it. But it was given a reliable hope that it too would be set free from its bondage to decay and would enjoy the freedom accompanying the glory that God’s children will have."

"We know that until now, the whole creation has been groaning as with the pains of childbirth; and not only it, but we ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we continue waiting eagerly to be made sons — that is, to have our whole bodies redeemed and set free. It was in this hope that we were saved."

"But if we see what we hope for, it isn’t hope — after all, who hopes for what he already sees? But if we continue hoping for something we don’t see, then we still wait eagerly for it, with perseverance." [Rom.8:18-25]

Those of us who are persevering in practicing righteousness now, are exempt from the time of trial that is coming upon the whole World. This is what the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught us:

"Because you did obey my message about persevering, I will keep you from the time of trial coming upon the whole world to put the people living on earth to the test. I am coming soon; hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown." [Rev.3:10,11]

Wrath is not Tribulation!

Thanks for policing the spammers.

They are a waste of kilobytes.




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You can post any and as many videos denying the imminent return of Jesus for His church, but all of it is unbiblical.

Jesus said, "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." Matthew 25:13





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Why do people take verses out of context???

Matthew 24

"Signs of the End of the Age

3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation

15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Matthew 24 gives a consistent chronology for what must take place before the Parousia of Jesus Christ. Suffering persecuted Christians (elect), then the abomination of desolation, and then the Rapture.

Mark 13 has the same chronology.

Signs of the Close of the Age

3 And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?” 5 And Jesus began to say to them, “See that no one leads you astray. 6 Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and they will lead many astray. 7 And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. This must take place, but the end is not yet. 8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines. These are but the beginning of the birth pains.

9 “But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. 10 And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. 11 And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. 13 And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
The Abomination of Desolation

14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, 16 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 17 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 18 Pray that it may not happen in winter. 19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. 20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. 21 And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.
The Coming of the Son of Man

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Luke 21 has the identical chronology.

7 And they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?” 8 And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them. 9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.”
Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers[c] and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Coming of the Son of Man

25 “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

And then you proceed to do just that.





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AC72276902,

The Rapture of the Church is not the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

I don't really like doing it (free speech and all that) but it's not fair on everyone else to allow a few spammers to ruin everything.

A boatload of truth in a really short post.

The Fountain from which all consciousness flows.

Explain consciousness, 72265061. lol

Well I for one have never read any of his works and I suspect that most other people haven't as well. I think that it is incorrect to make out that the Rapture just came out of the blue. It stands on it's own merits, those who are not ready will be left behind.

Here is an interesting Chick illustrated tract that tells you more about the Rapture.

WHERE DID THEY GO?... [link to www.chick.com (secure)]

Last Edited by Judethz on 05/26/2016 02:36 PM

Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 cannot be more clear. You can buy into the doctrines of humanity or just read the Bible.

No one knows the date and hour of the Parousia of Jesus Christ, but don't then ignore that Jesus Himself answered this question three times with a chronology!

What's more Mark 13 has a fourth clue.

9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

Why do you suppose there's the urgency of Bible translators in diverse places?

What is with you and lol?

lol

Is "G-d" supposed to mean "God"

without actually saying "God"?

Your straight answer is "Yes"...

So then, why do YOU think that YOU are better with GOD for writing "G-d" rather than "God"?

What exactly is God's problem with "o"?

Why? Because it is NOT scriptural!

It's misguided Jewish nonsense to say/write "G-d", a carryover of the practice of substituting "Adonai" to replace YHWH.

Do you think that GOD thinks it is better for you to write "g-d" than it is for you to write "God"?

lol