The War Against the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

72253324, panties are really in a bunch! lol

That chick is hot, too bad she`s an indoctrinated pile of waste.

He's the one who is going to judge your pretentious donkey ass! lol

shift shaping donkeys will be in big demand for shows in tijuana!

Judethz, i will not be offended at any disposition of my posts! lol

Like sunlight to a vampire...

Romans 14 is a GREAT read concerning arguments over doctrine



[link to www.biblestudytools.com]

This is a great read for ALL who are arguing from either side of the fence, and the thoughts can be applied to ANY doctrinal arguments concerning Faith & Belief

Romans 14

[link to www.biblestudytools.com]

Excerpts

14:1 through 14:6

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.

2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.

4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks

And then 14:14 through 14:23

14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.

16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.

20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Last Edited by TheLordsServant on 05/21/2016 08:58 AM

Oh, but it IS true, as only a very little bit of research will confirm.

Anger and defensiveness are an understandable reaction to finding out that one has been deceived by flawed doctrines and confused preachers who tickle the ears of their congregations with false promises of security. But who is the Father of Lies and the author of all confusion?

The Most High God did not spare His uncreated sinless Son the worst suffering any human being ever endured; what makes any of us think we, as sinful creatures, should not be subject to trial and tribulation?

I agree. If anything else, this silly debate takes away from what faith in God and the resurrection of Christ where really about.

To quote Keith Green: "Pray for Pre, but be prepared for Post"

Do I believe Christ saved me. Yes.
Do I know I will be with God and pass Judgement because of what Christ did for us. Yes.

Since no-one can know the day or the hour, the debate Pre or Post is just one more thing to keep Christians occupied in debating each-other instead of following in Christ's footsteps.

No this is not a sterile debate about this or that. When the Lord comes it will be at an hour

that we think not. As the story of the ten virgins makes very clear those who are not ready will be left behind. And besides all this not one of us can guarantee that we will still be drawing breath at this time tomorrow...what happens to those who die who are not in right standing with the Lord?

If war is waged against pre-trib rature and not against mid or post, then we know which one is the right one. Simple.

I didn't think of that.

oh, you'd better :p

Here's a young boy who knows the truth. [link to youtu.be (secure)]

Yeah and it's too bad that you're such an arrogant know it all.

Quite apart from anything else think about all the billions of people who have died in the last 2,000 years or so when Jesus Christ
lived upon the earth. Like us, non of them could guarantee that they would still be drawing breath the following day. So right there we are correct in urging
people to get right with the Lord now.
You have obviously been drifting through life if you don't realize that...yes we really are running out of time.

Why?

This has nothing to do with date-setting.

Maybe you are just trying to slander rapture believers.

.

With lists of fail that massive they actually slander themselves.

Unfortunately I think it will be a very excited place, full of alien-huggers and New Agers dancing on their keyboards.

The alien-huggers will be thanking their alien overlords for taking off to dispose of all those religious people all over the world, and the New Agers will be worshiping and thanking Gaia (aka- Mother Earth, originally known as a Greek pagan goddess) for ascending to a higher vibrational state and leaving behind all those pesky religious people.

But for those with wisdom, it will be a sad day indeed.

And then it begins....

No, it has nothing to do with salvation.

All true believers are part of the Bride of Christ that will go with our Savior when He comes again to take us up to His Father's House.

I don't understand why the Pre-Trib haters are so venomous towards those who believe in the Blessed Hope. It doesn't make sense. If you don't believe in it, so be it.

But why all the hate and slander and name-calling? It's very un-Christian-like behavior.

a long read, but worth it :)

Thread: The Bible is a marriage contract

love, rb

Yes, there will come later Christians after the rapture, who will come to believe after the Church left, who will then have to go through the Tribulation. But if they had only believed before the rapture, then they too would not have to endure the time of "Jacob's Trouble."

Jacob's name was changed by God to 'Israel'. Jacob was not a Christian. He was not part of the Church as he lived long before Yahshua(Jesus). He was the embodiment of Israel. This will be the time for Israel's Trouble, not the time of the Church's Trouble.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]

As requested. Here is a wall of bible verses for you. These are just some of the verses that support the Pre-Trib rapture view, along with some notes I added for explanation.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

When dealing with doctrinal issues, sometimes some simple truths are right there in the Bible in front of our noses, and it's easy for us to understand them. Other difficult truths are more challenging and require us to look at the whole chapter, book, or the bible in order to fully grasp the concepts. When any one verse dealing with a particular doctrinal issue appears to stand apart from other similar truths, we should suspect that there may be an interpretation or possibly a translation issue involved that needs further research. I believe the doctrine of the Pre-Trib rapture is one such difficult truth.

The word 'rapture' is not listed in the English bible. But it is listed in the Latin Vulgate bible, written by Jerome in the early 400's AD. The word there is 'raeptius' or 'rapturo' , which translated into English means 'rapture'. It is found here in the English bible:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be *caught up* together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In English bibles, 'raeptius' or 'rapturo' is translated into 'caught up'. That happens sometimes during the translation process to try to communicate the point more familiarly.

The original Thessalonian manuscripts however were written in Greek. There were actually no 'English' words at all in the original bibles, including the word 'bible' itself. And the original Greek word for 'rapture' is listed in English transliteration as 'harpazo', which means 'to rapture up into the air', or to 'snatch away by force'.

It was this original Greek term 'harpazo' that Jerome later translated into Latin as 'raeptius', which was later translated into English as 'rapture'. These terms all mean the same thing: 'to be caught up'.

[link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]
[link to www.raptureready.com]

Below are some reasons I believe the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine is likely to be the most Biblically accurate view:

1. Imminency. We're supposed to look, watch, and wait for Yahshua(Jesus') imminent return. Nothing has to happen before Yahshua(Jesus) returns for us. (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thes. 1:10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; 1 Peter 1:13; Jude 21) The non-Pre-Trib positions ALL require certain things to happen 1st before Yahshua(Jesus) can return. Things like the Antichrist's 7 yr peace treaty with Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount right on or next to the Muslim Dome of the Rock, the 7 Seals of Judgment, etc. These things destroy imminency.

[link to www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk]

2. Dispensation of the Tribulation. The Bible states that Daniel's 70th Week/Tribulation/Great Tribulation/Time of Jacob's Trouble/Day of the Lord/Wrath of God are all things related to God's dealing with Israel getting ready to restore it back to His grace. (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:22-44; 22:13-22) This is not a time for the Church, but a time for "those who dwell on the earth"- meaning non-Christians. (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 17:2, 8)

3. Dispensation of the Church. The Church is promised to be taken up to the Father's House. (John 14:1-3 Compare this verse with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) How can that be if the Church remains here on earth thru the 2nd Coming? Going up to meet Yahshua(Jesus) in the air at the moment He's coming down to finish off the Antichrist and his armies is not the same as the Church going up to heaven. There is no mention of Yahshua(Jesus) going back to heaven in the Bible after His 2nd Coming. And I don't think He's going to open heaven and come down with all His angels just to pick up the Church in the air, then do a mid-flight U-turn & go back up to heaven. Then grab some horses and linens for the Church. Then do another U-turn and come back immediately to finish off the Antichrist. The Bible doesn't say that.

4. Also the Church is a Mystery. (Eph. 3:1-13; 2:11-22) That means a new Truth has just been revealed. The Old Testament prophets knew nothing about it or it's role in God's plan. But they did know a lot about the Tribulation period. This is further evidence that the two ages: the Old Testament Israel era & the New Testament Church era will not overlap. Right now, the Jews and Gentiles are co-mingled in the Church, (Eph. 2-3) but this can't be when you look at God's 70 Weeks program for Israel in Daniel. The two must be separated prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week, which is the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation.

5. The Church has also been promised deliverance from the TIME of God's wrath. That means, "out of the time period" of the Tribulation. (1 Thes. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10)

6. Time Gap Needed. A time period is needed in heaven to handle some things that will take place with the Church after the rapture.

7. The Judgment Seat of Christ (or 'Bema' in Greek) needs to happen to Christians in the Church in heaven before they return with Yahshua(Jesus) to the Battle of Armageddon. (2 Corinthians 5:10) This is when they get their rewards for good Christian service (or not)

8. The Bride of Christ (the true Assembly(Church) has to be in heaven to get ready for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-10) as I mentioned earlier. They can't do this if they don't go up to heaven before the 2nd Coming.

9. The 24 Elders around the Throne in heaven appear to be very representative of the Church. If this is so, the Church must be in heaven prior to the opening of the 1st Seal of the Scroll of the Tribulation- the opening kick-off if you will. (Revelation 4:1-5:14) In the New Testament, the elders represent the Church. (Acts 15:6; 20:28) In the Old Testament, the elders were always 24 in number, and appointed by King David to represent the entire priesthood. In Yahshua(Jesus') new Millennial Kingdom, Christians will assume the title of the Priesthood. (Revelation 20:6)

10. Where are all the mortals? If all the Christians are raptured up at the 2nd Coming of Christ, who will be left to re-populate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom? All the bad guys will be gone because of the Battle of Armageddon and the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment. Raptured Christians will have immortal bodies and will no longer pro-create. (sorry) But the Bible clearly states that there will be mortal Christians who survived the cataclysm and who would carry on mortal life on earth. (Isa. 65:20-25). And, the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment would also be impossible if all the good guys were already raptured. There would be no need for a separation of the two groups of mortals. This is an impossible situation for the Post-Tribulation Rapture proponents.

11. The Presence of the Holy Spirit. The 'man of lawlessness'/Antichrist/beast is said to be held back for now. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12) The 'restrainer of evil'/Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) is at work in the Church right now and will leave with it in the Pre-Trib rapture. This will then free the Antichrist to unleash his demonic power on the world soon after, which is the first Seal of Judgment to be opened in heaven after the rapture. The Pre-Trib view is the only view that can work here.

12. Here are some comparisons between the Rapture & the 2nd Coming:

Rapture: is a translation or resurrection coming where the Lord comes FOR His Church/Bride (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and taking her to His Father's House. (John 14:3).
2nd Coming: Yahshua(Jesus) is coming WITH his saints/Church/Bride from heaven to set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth for 1000 yrs. (Rev. 19; Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31)

Rapture: is a Mystery, a newly revealed truth (1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 1:26) not known to the Old Testament prophets, and making it a separate event from anything they have foreseen. The New Testament talks about the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming.
2nd Coming: was predicted in the Old Testament. (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4) The Old Testament of Israel just talks about the 2nd Coming.

13. More comparisons between the two:

Rapture: Translation of all believers
2nd Coming: No translation of anyone

Rapture: Translated saints go up to heaven
2nd Coming: Translated saints return down to earth

Rapture: Earth is not judged at that time
2nd Coming: Earth is judged and righteousness is restored

Rapture: Imminent and sign-less
2nd Coming: Follows exact signs and days according to Daniel and Revelation prior to.

Rapture: Is for Believers only
2nd Coming: Is for everyone

Rapture: Happens before the Day of Wrath
2nd Coming: Concludes the Day of Wrath

Rapture: Has no reference to Satan
2nd Coming: Satan is bound up for 1000 yrs.

Rapture: Yahshua(Jesus) comes in the air only
2nd Coming: Yahshua(Jesus) comes down to land on the earth

Rapture: Only Christians see Him
2nd Coming: Everyone sees Him

Rapture: Tribulation then begins
2nd Coming: Millennial Kingdom begins

14. Practical Results of a Pre-Trib Rapture. Some people think the Pre-Tribbers have illusions of escapism that will destroy their witness and faith if the Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't play out. They think Pre-Tribbers don't care about anything or anyone because they think they have a 'Get out of Jail Free' card for the Tribulation. However, they might not realize that Yahshua(Jesus) will reward Christians for good service at the Judgment Seat of Christ later in heaven after the rapture. If there is no good Christian service, there may be little or no rewards waiting for them after the rapture.

The fact that Yahshua(Jesus) could return today for us should be a good motivator for living a good Christian life and doing good works for Christ.

Also, knowing that loved ones: friends and family, who aren't Christians will be left behind after the rapture to face the coming cataclysm of the Great Tribulation should be enough to motivate them to try to lead as many people as possible to Christ before it's too late.

If the Pre-Wrath or Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture view was accurate, a simple study of Daniel's 70th Week would then show you exactly when Yahshua(Jesus) is returning for the 2nd Coming. All you have to do is note when the Antichrist's 7 year peace treaty with Israel is signed, or note just when the Antichrist's abomination of desolation in the new Jewish Temple happens, and you can compute the exact day of our Lord's 2nd Coming. No imminency there. No need to always live a righteous life there. You could then just sin and sin and wait around until the last day before Christ's return and then repent and be good. Based on my understanding of the Bible, I just don't think it works like that.

And whoever said that everyone must suffer through the Tribulation to be purified?, or to do XYZ good works in the Tribulation to get saved?

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Yahshua(Jesus).
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What about everyone who has died already who didn't suffer any hardships at all? By some people's definition, they are not saved because they have suffered no great tribulation. That just doesn't make any sense. Yahshua(Jesus) said that we would be delivered from the time and hour of God's judgment to "those who dwell on the earth." His great judgment is for those who have rejected Yahshua(Jesus), not for His children. Satan has given Christians plenty of tribulation over the years, and continues to do so even today.

[link to www.persecution.com]

Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is the 'Blessed Hope!'

Titus 2:13 (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Yahshua(Jesus) Christ

Maranatha!

Peace.
.
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.raptureme.com]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.raptureforums.com]
[link to www.raptureforums.com]

Please don't confuse daily promised sufferings for the 'Great Tribulation', that great cataclysm that will be unlike anything to have ever occurred on earth, or shall ever again. This Day of the Lord's Wrath is a special future time set aside for Israel's trials and for those haters 'who dwell upon the earth.' It is not a time for Yahweh's(God's) children, the Bride of Christ.

He Yahshua(Jesus) has promised us that He will return for us, and that He has prepared a place for us in His Father's House in heaven for us to stay 'a little while.' We the Church are not appointed to that time of Yahweh's Wrath. It is the 70th Week of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy for Israel and the unbelieving world. It is a time for 'Jacob's Trouble', not a time for the 'Church's Trouble'. The Church will be gone, according to Yahshua's testimony. True believers are like the bridesmaids with oil in their lamps. Unbelievers are those sleepy pretenders without oil in theirs. The 'Oil' is the Ruach Ha'Kodesh(Holy Spirit.) Without the Holy Spirit living in them, no one will go with the Groomsman(Yahshua) back to His Father's House when He comes for us. They will be left behind.

Clearly, it's better to be right with our Lord before He returns for us. Who can argue with that?

.

Follow the unexplained anger and outrage. Follow the hostility.

Some behaviors of the Adversary are predictable.