RAPTURE!! It is coming and I will be saved because I am better than you! (SARCASM) Update pg 22

There is nothing arrogant or selfish about believing in the Word of God. The judgments and wrath of God will be poured out upon the cruel and unjust world of unbelievers and haters, not the children of God. Which camp are you in? Do you blame God for the judgment he is about to unleash upon the haters, the NWO Illuminati and other Satanists? You sound like a hater. Are you?

If you find Yahshua(Jesus), you have nothing to worry about. His free gift of salvation is open for everyone who will believe in and embrace Him. If you deny Him on the other hand, you will have everything to worry about.

The Illuminati work for Satan, and Satan hates anything good that comes from God, including salvation and the rapture. He will try to hide and explain away the rapture after it comes.

Yes, stay away from big TV and mega-church preachers, especially the ones who are Freemasons, as most of them are frauds or have split allegiances.

Choose life!

28But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.”.....returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 42Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”43Just as he was speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, appeared With him was a crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests, the teachers of the law, and the elders.

10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.


The blessed hope. He will keep us from that hour of trial and it involves RISE! LET US GO! at the HERE COMES MY BETRAYER, at the REVEALING OF THE SON OF PERDITION

Again. I have answered all of this previously. If you can't see truth for what it is, there is no help for you.

Jesus Christ Has told us all we need to know. Anything else is supposition and not to be believed. I have quoted HIS testimony and you STILL claim it is me who brings you the warning to avoid adding to the bible and HIS words.

READ YOUR BIBLE, BUT DON'T READ into IT. i HAVE ANSWERED ALL OF THE QUESTIONS YOU ARE ASKING AND I DID SU USING JESUS CHRISTS OWN WORDS.

IF YOU STILL WON'T BELIEVE, THEN THERE IS NO HELP FOR YOU EXCEPT FOR PRAYER.

the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to him (Rise! Let us go!) will not occur until the man of lawlessness, the son of perdition, is revealed (here comes my betrayer! Just as he was speaking...Judas appeared)

Grace and peace in God the father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

So it comes down to
Believing this op who would falsely accuse the brethren of believing that that "they are better than you" or believing the very word of God who has revealed the pattern we are to watch for

Did I not just say that the word I bring is Jesus Christ's own?

Everything I have presented within to refute the FALSE rapture theory comes from Jesus!

We MUST take His words in scripture and apply them to all scripture dealing with the tribulation period. If you use any other interpretation, you are Accusing JESUS OF LYING, AND ANTICHRIST.

HE TELLS US HE DOES NOT COME UNTIL AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

YET HERE YOU ARE CALLING HIM A LIAR.

Choose to believe what you will, but you have been warned. That is what this thread is about. it serves as a warning to some, an eye opening for others and for others still, simply so much mambo jumbo.

If you are convinced there is going to be a rapture, then that is your right.

Do not say that what I present here is lies however, because they are not my words. I am just sharing what Jesus said too.

The warning has been issued and anyone who fails to believe does so to their detriment according to scripture.

There are plenty that will see the truth even if you can't. If you can't or won't, then this is not meant for you.

Noted.

I will try to keep up on that.

I don't read some of the links for the simple fact that they are rehashing already addressed fallacies. Otherwise, I would have done so if I had seen them.

I almost regret creating this thread for the simple fact that I keep getting drawn into pointless and flawed rapture arguments and find that I must continually repeat myself. I do try to just let it go...

The only regret I do NOT have is revealing the truth to people who might not otherwise know.

Thank you for your worthy and valued input.

It is refreshing to see others who believe what the bible and Jesus say rather than just those who show themselves to be drawn away from the truth due to itching ears or false assumption.

I know to many who respond, that it appears as if I am condemning them with my thread title. I suppose in a manner that might be true even if that isn't my primary intent.

Realistically, what I am condemning it the false belief they endorse and spread, just as Jesus does. The thread title was created with the intention to draw attention in order to stir dialogue which would be used to present biblical fact and separate that from flawed rapture ideology.

My primary wish is to bring the message Jesus tells us too, exposing and separating fact from fiction and presenting this to others who may not be aware of what scripture actually says.

The 'Departing' is not specifically detailed in the bible. It could mean a departing from the faith, yes. AND it could also mean a departing from the earth. Bible scholars are not all in agreement with this either. Time will tell.

When Yahshua(Jesus) comes, yes we should be doing His will, regardless when He comes.

Of course there have been raptures already. A rapture is when someone is taken up to heaven when they were still alive. This happened to Enoch, Elijah, and Yahshua. And it also happened, although perhaps only in spirit, to Paul and John too.

Yes, they were to keep themselves pure, as a bride keeps herself pure (the Church is the bride of Christ), because the bridegroom is coming at a late hour which the bride doesn't know, and she has to be pure & ready for Him. And when He comes, He takes her back to His Father's House, and hides her away in their bridal chambers for 7 days, consummating their marriage with a marriage supper. Then after that they return for all the people to see. Sound familiar? It's an analogy for the rapture and the subsequent 7 year Tribulation.

When we become born-again, we become set apart from the world. At the time of salvation we are not taken to heaven, but rather we have jobs to do for the Lord here on earth to occupy until He comes for us, which will be the Pre-Trib rapture. And if we die before then, we will rest assured that we are saved, even though we did not have to endure to the end of the Tribulation that hasn't come yet, just like the apostles and all other Christians who have come before us. They did not have to endure to the end of the Great Tribulation either.

I think you can make the Job analogy for the Church for every day trials and tribulations. But once the Church is taken away, then new believers will arise during the Tribulation: the Tribulation Saints. And then you could make the Job analogy for them during the time of the Tribulation.

"When do you think we will be in our Father's House in heaven if there is no rapture ever? You offer no explanation or answer.

Jesus Christ answers this. On the last day, AFTER THE LAST TRUMPET SOUNDS, He will return and this is also when the FIRST RESURRECTION OCCURS AND HE GATHERS HIS SAINTS THAT ALSO MAKE IT THROUGH THE TRIBULATION ALIVE. He will rule over them for 1000 years, also know as the MILLENNIUM KINGDOM OF CHRIST. He has been preparing a place for the Saints, He has been building mansions for them in His kingdom."

So your position is that Yahshua will return at the end of the Tribulation, the resurrection of the just happens, and He gathers His living saints, and they enter into the Millennial Kingdom, which is the Father's House and is where the mansions are located, for a thousand years? Interesting, I have never heard such an argument before.

1. Your view certainly eliminates the possibility of a rapture translation of living people into immortal bodies. There is no translation of the living saints according to you as it is written in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57:

"50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."- 1 Corinthians 15:50-57

Because you claim those who are still alive at Yahshua's coming and at the resurrection will be taken into the Millennial Kingdom, not to heaven, and will not have translated immortal bodies, yes? Gathering and translating are not the same thing. Because you know if they did have immortal bodies, then there would be no one left to repopulate the earth in the Millennial Kingdom, because Godly immortals don't procreate. But a 'no translation' directly contradicts the Word of God as found in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57. How do you reconcile this?

2. Also, if Yahshua kills all bad people immediately at His Second Coming (where He comes with His saints & angels), what bad guys will be around for the sheep & goats/wheat & tares/wheat & chaff judgments when the separation takes place?

3. You claim that Yahshua, after His rapture, has been preparing a place and mansions for us in the future Millennium Kingdom that has not arrived in our time yet. Are you saying that Yahshua has leapt into the future to do this? I'm not doubting that He could do so, I'm just trying to understand if time travel is part of your theory.

You also claim that the Millennial Kingdom of Christ is Christ's Father's House. Let's take a look at what the bible says about Yahshua's Father's House:

"1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."- John 14:1-4 This is the verse in question. You say Yahshua went into the future to prepare a place for us in his future Millennial Kingdom?

"And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise."- John 2:16 So here His Father's House is the Temple in Jerusalem.

"And He said to them, "Why is it that you were seeking Me? Did you not know that it behooves Me to be in the house of My Father?""- Luke 2:49 Here the Father's House is the Temple in Jerusalem.

As we can see here, there is no mention of the Millennial Kingdom associated with Yahshua's Father's House. But we know from scripture that after His resurrection, Yahshua did not go back to the Temple in Jerusalem, at least the bible makes no mention of that. Instead, He was raptured back to heaven to be with His Father in His Father's House in heaven.

"11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."- Acts 1:11

The bible tells us that there is a temple of Yahweh(God) in heaven:

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."- Revelation 11:19

So if Yahshua's Father's House is His Temple as the bible says, and when Yahshua was raptured He did not go to the temple in Jerusalem to prepare a place and mansions for millions of believers inside that one building (that was later utterly destroyed as He predicted), then it is reasonable to conclude that in John 14:1-4 Yahshua was talking about going to the Temple in heaven, His original Father's House, not the earthly copy, and not to a future time called the Millennial Kingdom.

In fact, there is evidence to suggest that the temple in Jerusalem was an earthly copy of the original Temple in heaven. [link to askelm.com]

The bible clearly indicates then that Yahshua went to His Father's House (the Temple of Yahweh(God) in heaven) at His rapture. And He did so to prepare a place (mansions) for us so that when He comes again to rapture us, He will then take us up to His Father's House, the Temple in heaven, where He has mansions prepared for us. It's a beautiful revealing of His love and His grace for us: His Church and His Bride.

And I should mention that your 'no-rapture' theory doesn't work here.

Why the profanity Os? Will you repent for that?

Everyone is welcome to examine the evidence, study the scriptures, and make their own decisions about what the truth is most likely to be. Would you deny them a chance to be Bereans?

Why the continuing steady stream of fallacies? They do nothing but harm your position.

I have demonstrated, with ample scholarly research, that the definition for 'apostasy' is deeper than many previously thought.

Those were disciples, not apostles. There's a difference. Please use the correct words if you don't want to be called on it.

I do respect Yahshua Ha'Machiach, more than you apparently know. I am not calling Him a liar. Please do not put words into my mouth that are not true. A misinterpretation on your part does not constitute a false witness on mine. And your suggestion of such hints at malice.

Yes, you may mock, scoff, bear false witness, offer personal attacks, character assassination, and any number of evil actions if you so choose to do so on your own personal thread, that is true. I'm however attempting to appeal to your Christ-like side. Of that I will not impugn as we are supposed to conduct ourselves with Christ-like love and manners.

I'm glad that you will no longer call me a fool.

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."- Matthew 5:22

The Pre-Trib theory is the most likely to be the closest to the truth. Your pseudo-Post-Trib theory seems to be uniquely yours alone. I'm sorry you can't see that. But you should know my replies are not really for you anyway. They are for those whom you are trying to lead astray; errors that could cost them a crown. I am content with the unfortunate fact that you do not believe Paul when he spoke of a rapture and a translation. I however choose to offer them the Blessed Hope, whereas you only offer them error and tribulation.

lol. Jesus Christ used the word dung heap, would you prefer I use that?

You represent Satan. Sorry. I am done discussing YOUR failed and fallacious arguments.

Correct. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I googled the passage I wanted to share USING THE WORD APOSTLE, and found it. I didn't notice the distinguishing difference when I posted the scripture that it said disciple rather than apostle, because google brought me to the text i wanted. It didn't occur to me that the changeover had occurred. It was an innocent mistake on my part. I stand corrected.

Irregardless of that point, Scripture does speak of apostasy and those who come bearing a message that is NOT of Jesus Christ. These people are refereed to as false teachers or messengers in the later days.

Many of these people truly are in apostasy, because they knowingly continue to pervert the truth even after they have been shown their error. You are a good example of this. I am willing to admit when I am in error, you however steadfastly refute the truth and continue to dispense garbage, claiming it to be truth.

There is the big difference.

'Dung-heap' is a good word, much better than the former I think.

I see you haven't repented. I suspect there's much pride in you. And hostility too.

I couldn't help but notice that you didn't address the issues I brought up in my last post. And instead you went straight to the personal attacks, again, as so many times before.

Sure we can disagree with each other, and not even speak to one-another if that is your wish. But as long as you are leading people astray with your false teachings, I will respond to the issues, even if I don't address you directly.

Nevertheless, I forgive you for all of your hostility directed towards me. I will not take it personally, but instead will lay it at the feet of my Savior, Yahshua.

Peace and Grace to You.

Maranatha!

The only thing you have given me to consider is that two wrongs don't make a right.

You bear false witness again Jesus Christ. i don't. While I describe the fruit of what you have to offer as it really is, which is not wrong to do. I can't polish a turd, but you would condemn me for for not doing so on your behalf due to the false rapture doctrine you bring.

For that I will not apologize. If in any way I have done wrong or good while sharing the Gospel of Christ, then God will determine what and if that is so and discipline me or reward me accordingly. The same is true for you.

You obviously believe in a rapture, I do not. It is NOT scriptural and presumptive and tenaciously philosophical at best based upon everything you and others have had to share on it.

IT does not align with the teaching of Jesus and this is painfully obvious to those with perception.

Go your way until the end. I will pray for you and others like you that you might repent and come to the truth of the Gospel of Jesus instead of applying scripture to fit your definition of what you want it to be.

Actually, it is not hostility, it is ANGER. it is not sinful to be angry. I am angry that you betray Jesus and pollute His words and place your perceptions in their place teaching others that it is truth.

Be angry, sin not.

You are not only presumptive about scripture, but you want to apply those same or similar presumptions to me. i am done with you, because all you are doing is stroking your ego to support your philosophy of what you want other so believe even though it is based upon philosophy and not fact.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Lets put it into scriptural context shall we?

There is more to it than verse 10 that goes with it for this church.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

So, what scripture concludes is that God will protect us as long as we hold fast to that which we have. (OUR FAITH) Then the one that does will become a pillar in NEW JERUSALEM WHICH COMES DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN.

Yep. this shows Jesus Christ's second coming. Verse 10 simply means that God will not allow you to be fooled by worldly distractions even so much as being deceived by false prophets or the mark of the beast. You will know them for what they are.

the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him (the hour has come,....Rise! let us go!) is connected to the revealing of the man of lawlessness, son of perdition (Here comes my betrayer! Just as he was speaking, Judas appears)

You maintain a thousand times that you bring Jesus Christ own words. Every last one of us knows truly how mens doctrines develop. They piecemeal together scripture thinking they go together and conclude falsely. They do not rightly divide / cut straight the word.

How can you ignore such a picture?
Jesus comes back to them.
The hour has come.
Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer.
Just as he is speaking, judas appears.

That is CLEARLY referring to the same event as 2 Thessalonians - that the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the gathering to him is connected to the appearance of the man of lawlessness, the son of perdition

But you insist Jesus never speaks of such a thing.
Clearly he does.
And so you and your accusations against the brethren "thinking themselves better than you" - making that accusation public as you do no less - will make that hour of trial coming upon the whole world doubly painful for many. All because you fed the hearts of people that accusation when it was farthest from the truth.

I believe in Jesus Christ.

I believe in His Rapture.

It matters not what men say not.

I'm fairly new to studying the language behind the English translations, but if you look at the Greek behind Luke 21:36 you see
katischysete - you might have strength
ekphygein - to escape

Katischysete is also translated as overpower or overcome. That doesn't really fit with a pre-trib rapture narrative does it? It fits with a resisting the apostasy of the end and deception that will infect the church.

Thoughts?

Greetings. Neither am I a Greek scholar, so I search the Greek as best as I can.

It appears the phrase you have in question here in Luke 21:36 is "36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

But some English bible translations use the phrase "might be strong enough" or something similar instead of "accounted worthy," which is really different. "Accounted worthy" does not involve self strength. Instead it involves an honor bestowed on someone.

You brought up the Greek word katischysete, which is one of many transliterations of Strong's(2729) which means "prevail against, overpower, am able, get the upper hand, to be strong to another's detriment, have power, to be superior in strength."

[link to biblehub.com]

So the question arises, "Which English meaning is likely to be more accurate?" I think the heart of the matter is no so much within the English translation of the Greek bible so much as it is, "Which Greek manuscripts is your English translation taken from?" There are many, many ancient Greek manuscripts of the bible, and they don't all agree with each other all the time. And this is one such case.

A collection of 3 ancient Greek manuscripts (and fragments thereof) that come from Egypt and the Catholic church are called the Minority Text(a.k.a. Critical Text[CT]), and consist of the Codex Alexandrinus, the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus, and they mostly agree with each other in content. These are said to be critical of the majority of manuscripts extant. Most modern (and flawed) English bibles primarily rely on the Minority Text for most or all of their Greek text sources. And English bibles that are derived from this Minority Text (most of them) often translate Luke 21:36 as "might be strong enough","ye may prevail","be able" or something similar. This is where your bible translation gets that phrase from.

On the other hand, there are over 5000 ancient Greek bible manuscripts and fragments that agree with each other that make up what is known as the Majority Text(MT)(a.k.a. the Antiochian/Byzantine Text) of bible manuscripts. From the Majority Text a small subset of manuscripts was taken and collated by Erasmus, and is known as the Textus Receptus(TR). There were variants to this, but this is where it came from. The King James Version of the bible comes primarily from the Textus Receptus. The Majority Texts tend to agree on the words in Luke 21:36 as "may be counted worthy," and use the Greek word kataxiwqhte which is Strong's(2661)

[link to biblehub.com]

In fact, textual bible scholar Pickering stated:

'Instead of ‘counted worthy’, less than 2% of the Greek manuscripts, of objectively inferior quality, have ‘be able’ (as in NIV, NASB, LB, TEV, etc.).'- Dr. Wilbur N. Pickering

[link to www.walkinhiscommandments.com]

So you see, it really depends on which bible you use, and the underlying Greek that it uses, in order to derive at which version of Luke 21;36 you get. I believe the Majority Text with over 5000 supporting manuscripts is likely to be more accurate than the Minority Text with just a few supporting manuscripts. So we have 98% of Greek manuscripts saying "counted worthy" and 2% saying something else. In light of that, I will go with :counted worthy" instead of "have strength."

This shows some textual variants in Luke between the TR, MT & CT

[link to www.fitnessforoneandall.com]

And regardless of what we think about either the phrase "counted worthy" or "have strength" in that verse, we still can't ignore the phrase "escape all these things that shall come to pass." The Greek word here for escape is ekphygein Strong's(1628), which means 'I flee out, away, escape; with an acc: I escape something.' And this definition certainly does not mean "to endure."

[link to biblehub.com]
[link to www.dictionary.com]

In light of the use of the more correct phrase "counted worthy" I think we can understand how it is used with "escape" better. "Counted worthy to escape" vs. "have the strength to escape." We know what escape means. And we know (many of us) that we do not have the self-merit or strength on our own to either get saved or to rapture ourselves. But if Yahweh(God) counts(deems) us worthy (by the grace of God by remission of our sins through Yahshua's sacrifice for us) to escape ALL these things to come to pass, then we can be reassured of a rescue in the form of the harpazo(rapture) from the time and hour of the Tribulation. It makes more sense this way.

Peace

MT vs. CT
[link to www.uv.es]

Greek Concordance
[link to www.htmlbible.com]

Parallel Greek New Testament
[link to www.greeknewtestament.com]

Consider that it might be very likely that many of the most ardent and faithful Rapture-deniers

that insist most insistently that all must go through the Tribulation and endure the Wrath of God

and must suffer and probably die to prove their Faith and earn their way

unless God carries them through to His Glorious Appearing

may Graciously be given just that opportunity if they are fortunate.

there is no strength in your words. You act like an accuser.
Take heed to that.

Jesus Christ won't be undone by a rapture. HE ONLY SPEAKS OF HIS SECOND COMING. I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE HIM AND YOU SHOULD TOO.

Of course Jesus Christ will not be "undone" when He takes His to Himself.

He does not need your permission or agreement.