Can Pre Tribulation rapture believers please answer a few simple questions about maassive flaws in their theory

First you have to define "twisting". Some people think that if anyone comes to a different conclusion than them, it must be due to "twisting" or stupidity or immaturity etc. I won't even bother if any attempt to defend my position is going to be labeled "twisting" or my motives judged.

Also, I was just in another thread about it and half the posts just disappeared, so there would need to be some assurance that this wouldn't happen here. (Plus, being a non-paying member, I never know whether I'll be allowed to respond.)

Anyway, just look at my earlier thread for my view: Thread: For Christians: The scriptural basis for the pre-tribulational Rapture

ADDED: [link to www.soundchristian.com]

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 05/26/2013 03:42 PM

Right, it happens at the last trump. It's a clear as day, there is no way to dispute it.

1 Corinthians 15:52 "It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed."

derp

Matthew Chapter 24 is Jesus instructing His people. He is telling them that they will go through the tribulation.



Matthew Chapter 24

The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time.

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

“Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The Day and Hour Unknown

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I like Krishna!

I believe I made it perfectly clear in the OP that I will not entertain other so called 'evidence' (99% of the time laughable) until pre tribbers get off their mostly indoctrinated rumps and refute my own points.

Yes pre tribbers often twist scripture horribly to make something seem what it is not.I picked the verses in the OP because they are simple,and in VERY clear and indisputable terms show the following.

1: The first resurrection takes place late in the tribulation,most likely at the 2nd coming right before the 1000yr reign.

2: According to Paul the 1st resurrection will take place at the same time as the rapture.If you accept the basic premise that true scripture cannot contradict each other,this will lead to the only logical conclusion.That the rapture takes place at the first resurrection at the end of the tribulation.


If you allow your religious indoctrination to deceive you from seeing the obvious and simple truth that is your problem.

This is exactly the attitude that makes conversation impossible. I won't be wasting my time here. I gave you two links: one to my own words here at GLP, and another to a very good article that debunks your position. Since your mind is made up and you mock anyone who disagrees, have a nice time debating both sides yourself.

Well one tends to get a little frustrated when so many so called devout Christians let their indoctrinating religious teachers/institutions tell them what the bible says,rather than using their brains to read what it says for themselves.

I attended Church for many years so I believe I know what I'm talking about.Most Christian sheeple are content to sit there in a pew,staring at the pastor in a hypnotic state while they affirmatively nod their heads at everything he says and throwing in a hearty 'AMEN' for good measure.No wonder I rarely attend church anymore.

I'm not asking for you to parrot your doctrine at me.I want YOU to use your brain and try..just try..to refute the points I made in the OP.

Every pre tribber I've ever tried to get to do this ends up getting mad and frustrated because I'm actually asking them to rationalize what they are saying.instead of the 'he said/she said' BS

You may know what you're talking about, but you don't know what I'm talking about, because you have already decided that the debate is over before it starts. Read your OP again, and ask yourself if you'd take that kind of crap from any pre-tribber. In contrast, in my own thread I simply stated what I believe and why, rather than pre-judge everyone as indoctrinated or blind or whatever.

I don't parrot anyone's doctrine. I study the Bible for myself, and have done so continuously for over 40 years. I even learned Greek so I could read it directly. You have presumed so much about so many people, and on that basis you declare yourself the winner... and wonder why nobody wants to talk to you.

I don't go to church either. Left it almost 8 years ago.

And NO, we don't get frustrated because you're asking us to rationalize. It's because you are arrogant and condescending and calling our view BS.

Any thoughts on Daniel 8:23 and 9:27 OP? I've always believed that was a reference to the start of the tribulation culminating in the wars spoken of in revelation 6 wit the symbolism of the four horseman.

The biggest problem I see is most pre-tribs get the tribulations and gods wrath mixed up and think there the same thing.When its trib-rap-gods wrath-1000yrs-armaggodon-new earth..Whats the point in having a test if no one at school.

If, as a follower of Christ who reads the scriptures themselves, one does not understand the myriad ways that God tells us, through his prophets, how and when the catching away takes place, then nothing can be done for them. They have either been severely indoctrinated to the point that backing a personality or organization is more important than truth, or they are just flat out too inept and overly arrogant in their lack of undertanding.

As was posted by Lisa earlier, Paul clearly spells it out for us in a concise manner that defies twisting or spinning: ...at the LAST trumpet those who are truly saved will be removed from Earth for a small period of time since it is at that time that the wrath of the Lamb will be manifest and Jesus returns as the Lion. Paul clearly states that those who are not saved are not to be given over unto wrath. Or, simply put, the elect will not experience the wrath of the Lamb.

So the "rapture" as many have chosen to call it, will be removed from the Earth at the last trumpet just as Jesus returns to strike down the man o perdition and the false prophet and their armies. To put a stop to the final war that would have otherwise wiped humanity from the Earth entirely if He does not intervene.

There are tons of support for this even throughout the old testament. It is very clear. Moreover, Jesus never took His prophets and disciples out of harms way throughout the ages. From the apostles all the way through to today. All followers faced severe persecution and eventual violent death. None were really spared. Even John of patmos was left to rot away on an island.

So stop being arrogant and thinking that any of us are THAT important. We Were told to carry our cross no matter what we lose. There is a reason Jesus said that.

+1000!

I for one would LOVE there to be a pre-trib rapture. Who in their right mind would want to go through tribulation and possibly martyred? I sure don't!!!!!

But it is what it is, and we can't lie to ourselves to make ourselves feel better. It just is God's plan to do it the way He sees fit, and we are to trust in Him completely that His way is the right way.

He tells us His way is at the last trump, and that's just the way that it is. Facts, no story's or twisting to suit out own personal preferences and wants.

I'm prepared to go through the hard times. If it turns out that I'm wrong about this, how wonderful! But, the Bible is plain as day on this matter, and I'm going to trust what it says.

We are promised not to suffer the wrath of God when He destroys the earth, but we are not promised a soft and easy life without tribulation. Exactly how bad and how long will the tribulation be? We don't know that for sure......we could be alot farther along then we know because some of the predictions might be spiritual in nature and not seen in the physical world, or the way we expect them.

But, in the end, God's plan is perfect and who is any of us to question that.

one thing we can all agree on as believers in Gods word is that the Bible does in fact support a Rapture. I tend not to debate or argue the timing of when it will happen cause I have seen good views all around but rather focus on being ready regardless! We have been given the signs to watch for, so we can clearly see now how soon he will be returning. Treat it as an imminent event so none are taking off guard like a foolish virgin, have your oil ready at all times for our redemption draws nigh! Shalom!

1. The first resurrection is not a single one time event ; that's where you're going wrong. You're right, the first resurrection BEGINS at the rapture but there are several different Groups of believers who are resurrected at different points in Revelation But yet each group and each instance is part of the first resurrection. So you see the first resurrection has many phases. What's qualifies all these different resurrections As being considered part of the first resurrection is because they're all believers. The second resurrection is for unbelievers only.

2. Here is a list of the different Groups of believers who will be resurrected (raptured) at separate times but are ALL INCLUDED IN THE FIRST REURRECTION -

1. Church-Age believers - Rev.7:9-12 At the opening of seal 6.

2. Two Tribulation Witnesses - Rev. 11:1-12

3. Man Child - Rev.12:5

4. 144,000 Israelite Witnesses- Rev.14:1-4 ....OP, look especially at verse 4.

I may have missed some, but the IMPORTANT FACT IS THAT EACH OF THESE RESURRECTIONS MAKE UP THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

Last Edited by Morganite on 05/26/2013 05:07 PM

Until the abomination that causes desolation happens just keeping the faith is all you can do.So I try not to worry about all the other details.

Exactly.
They wrongly classify the entire tribulation as 'Gods wrath' when Revelation 6:17 clearly shows this is not the case.

'For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?' Revelation 6:17

This is after the first 6 seal fella's.So once again with simple biblical reasoning the pre tribber assertion that since Christians will not face Gods wrath that means we escape the tribulation altogether,is a false claim.

almost every pre tribber bit of 'evidence' is twistings,half truths or outright lies such as the above that is used to deceive Christians into accepting this doctrine.

What is the last trump Paul is referring to? The last trump that is recorded in the book of Revelation? I don't think so, b/c there was no book of Rev at the time Paul wrote this letter. Also, throughout that letter Paul kept addressing God's Feast days, so it seems to reason that Paul was referring to the last trump that was blown at the Feast of trumpets (Rosh Hashanah), and not the book of Revelation, which was not even in existence yet.

Point #2: Since Jesus fulfilled all of the spring feast days, and in order, even to the hour, it seems to me that the most logical time for the Rapture would be on the next unfulfilled feast day, and at the last trump blown on that day. If Christ fulfilled all the spring feast at His first coming, then would He not also fulfill all of the Fall Feast days at His second coming?

Point #3:
Thess 4:14-18
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


The last verse in this passage is the Knock-Out punch, as far as I am concerned. Why would Paul tell them to "comfort one another with these words," if he had just told them that they would have to endure the Tribulation? There wouldn't be ANY comfort in those words, now would it?

There are many, many, more scriptures that point to the Pre-Trib Rapture, but I have to run.

Having a cookout today.

There is only one last trump because there is only one successions of trumpet blasts, they go along with the bowls and vials.

You are adding things.........nowhere in the bible says there is more then one last trump!

Last means last, it doesn't say second to last, or almost last! It means exactly what it says.......LAST!

LMAO!!!!

Op, you're tipping over a holy cow. Pre-tribbers will defend this ridiculous doctrine to the point of incoherent babble.

There is a deceiving spirit behind this doctrine which is why it's so hard to convince them the error of their ways.

They want their candyland rapture because it makes them feel good. Good luck is all I've got to say.

Who Invented the Rapture?

[link to afsscorp.stormloader.com]

Paul also used this phrase in the next chapter when talking about the day of the Lord which is a strict post tribulation event (sun/moon/stars will darken before the DOTL comes - joel 2:31. Sun/moon/stars will only begin to darken after the great trib - Matt 24:29)

Paul's point was that even though we will have to endure the great trib, the church will be raptured at the end of it. Any believer should find comfort in this.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Actually thank you very much for bring ing this to my attention,as it provides yet another nail in the pre trib rapture doctrines coffin.

'Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

'Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition' 2 Thessalonians 2:3

In simple terms Paul was warning people even back then about doctrines that preach of Jesus's return being at hand,like the pre trib camp.

He clearly states that the gathering will NOT occur until there is a great falling away(apostasy)and the man of sin (antichrist) is revealed.

This is direct opposite to what the pre tribbers preach,saying that the rapture will precede the tribulation.Christians will be expecting Jesus to take them away to safety because of this doctrine,and instead they will be encountering the antichrist first.

[link to www.youtube.com]

Matt 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”notice how it starts
and no its not talking about Israel.

Rom 11:7 “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded”

Rev 6:12-17 “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;” And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” same as above more detail

Technically, even if OP were being a total brick wall on this, your response would still be seen by (at least) dozens of people, some of whom may be enlightened by your input. Speaking truth is never a waste if time, even if nobody's really listening :)



* * *

Thank you

If only there were a way to post responses without being lynched by people saying "LMAO" and "hahahahaha" and making wholesale judgments of the character and motivations of millions of people.

Have you seen my thread on this topic? I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have.

Oh geez....I know that was directed at me. I only "LMAO'd" at TW and his post, and I can LMAO at him and he doesn't freak out because he's mature, he knows I love him, and he can dish it out too, and he does.

Don't take yourself so seriously.......nobody is "lynching" anyone here. Equating my ribbing a friend to murder is beyond imagination.

Calm down.....and take a deep breath.

Margaret McDonald, a fifteen-year-old girl living in Scotland, experienced a "vision" of the end of the world in 1820. In McDonald's vision, the chosen few are saved from a "purifying" fire. This is not exactly the disappearance in the middle of the day that popular culture views as the Rapture, but an early prototype. Not everyone leapt to follow her view — and in fact, several contemporary religious leaders deemed her visions demonic.

Meanwhile, London-born evangelist John Darby and members of his flock, the Irish-born Plymouth Brethren, popularized and molded the idea of Judeo-Christians being removed from the Earth, prior to an unknown period of strife. But McDonald had no influence on Darby's views, since Darby apparently espoused this idea as early as 1827. But McDonald's visions, and their later publication, no doubt further popularized the idea of the Rapture in Europe.

Popping up in publication
Darby traveled to North America on several occasions during the mid-19th Century, teaching his theory of the Rapture. On one of these trips, Darby met with James Brookes, a prominent preacher and writer in Missouri — and, most importantly, the mentor of Cyrus Ingerson Scofield.

Scofield, influenced by Darby's teachings via his mentor, published the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. The Scofield Reference Bible went on to become one of the best selling religious texts of the early 20th Century, one that continues to sell extremely well in the United Kingdom. Scofield's text displays his personal notes and explanations right next to the King James translation of the Judeo-Christian Bible. The proximity of Scofield's notes to the religious text no doubt lent credence to his words, especially in a world lacking widespread communication systems. As individuals emigrated to the United States in the early 20th Century, this helped spread the belief that Darby had already put in place, during his visits to North America.

By the way folks,this is the original poster in case you're wondering.I had to switch locations and therefore IP's.

Anyways another precious cash cow for the pre trib camp is their constant claims that since Jesus says he will return like a thief this means the rapture will be pre trib.

After all they reason...we have the days once the tribulation starts down to an exact science so we would know the very day to expect Jesus if it was post trib rapture.Well there's 2 main problems with this idea.

1: How do you know the signs of the start of the tribulation will be immediately visible to any other eyes other than God and the demonic forces that start the chao's?

Isn't that a rather big assumption to bank on being able to get it exactly right knowing the high rate of human error?Which brings me to a bigger point...

2: If dispensationalist advocates and founders are this badly mistaken about the timing of the rapture (as I have shown much evidence for),ever entertained the thought they might be completely wrong or at least mistaken somewhat about the 7 yr tribulation thingy too?

Meaning if they are wrong..Christs return would indeed still catch many as a thief.

And now finally the kiss of death once and for all for this tired old argument...

'Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.' Revelation 16:14

There it is again..'I come as a thief'.
Read this verse and then the verses before and after it pre tribbers.Know what events are happening around the same time Jesus is coming as a thief?

The antichrist is gathering his armies to the great final battle at the end of the tribulation is whats happening.

So once again fella's..the pre trib man made doctrine falls flat on it's face again,once examined through the lens of logic and truth.