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Is Logic a Belief?

 
numewenon
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04/12/2013 09:38 AM
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Is Logic a Belief?
Logic is what it is-- but we only see it through our brains which are biased. So do we believe in it?

My ultimate faith lies in logic. It also leads me to some very peculiar conclusions about life. They have similarities to aspects of Buddhism and some other concepts "preached" by people who meditate or do psychedelic drugs.

So is my faith in logic basically like a faith in God? Or even a faith directly in God?

Discuss. Please! (no this is not a bible thumping thread but everyone is welcome to say whatever)
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 09:44 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
As a side note of interest: I know "atheists" think that there is no God, or whatever, and they think themselves to be highly logical, but it is highly illogical to say there is no "god" when 1:what is their definition of god? 2:what proof do they have of this?
theorigionalzombiekil​ler

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04/12/2013 09:45 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
You can never truly be certain of anything, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
Face Palmer

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04/12/2013 09:45 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
Atheism is the belief there is no god :) Most people don't understand this. But I would not say logic is. You can actually prove logic.

Last Edited by Face Palmer on 04/12/2013 09:48 AM
"The world will soon wake up to the reality that everyone is broke and can collect nothing from the bankrupt, who are owed unlimited amounts by the insolvent, who are attempting to make late payments on a bank holiday in the wrong country, with an unacceptable currency, against defaulted collateral, of which nobody is sure who holds title."

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

The woman who is not pursued sets up the doctrine that pursuit is offensive to her sex, and wants to make it a felony. No genuinely attractive woman has any such desire. - H.L. Mencken, In Defense Of Women
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 09:48 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
gah one star? what for?

oh well. Lets talk about obama or justin beiber or something materialistic then lol.
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 09:50 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
Atheism is the belief there is no god :) Most people don't understand this. But I would not say logic is. You can actually prove logic.
 Quoting: Face Palmer


but that's what i mean. proving is done by your brain. How can we know for sure?
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 09:51 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
You can never truly be certain of anything, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
 Quoting: theorigionalzombiekiller


And try i do. It tortures me every day. Love Bruce Campbell btws. he is super duper.
Face Palmer

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04/12/2013 09:53 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
Atheism is the belief there is no god :) Most people don't understand this. But I would not say logic is. You can actually prove logic.
 Quoting: Face Palmer


but that's what i mean. proving is done by your brain. How can we know for sure?
 Quoting: numewenon


If you have 2 buckets and condition is: only one is filled with water, you can verify this statement by checking wether both buckets are full.

Of course, this requires sensoric proof, which in the end is created in your brain only, so we will never know for sure.
But the more positive hits you receive, the higher chances are, that it actually is this way. E.g. you always fell down, never up.

Last Edited by Face Palmer on 04/12/2013 09:53 AM
"The world will soon wake up to the reality that everyone is broke and can collect nothing from the bankrupt, who are owed unlimited amounts by the insolvent, who are attempting to make late payments on a bank holiday in the wrong country, with an unacceptable currency, against defaulted collateral, of which nobody is sure who holds title."

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

The woman who is not pursued sets up the doctrine that pursuit is offensive to her sex, and wants to make it a felony. No genuinely attractive woman has any such desire. - H.L. Mencken, In Defense Of Women
Face Palmer

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04/12/2013 09:54 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
I guess the core problem is, you cannot define logic without using logic.
"The world will soon wake up to the reality that everyone is broke and can collect nothing from the bankrupt, who are owed unlimited amounts by the insolvent, who are attempting to make late payments on a bank holiday in the wrong country, with an unacceptable currency, against defaulted collateral, of which nobody is sure who holds title."

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

The woman who is not pursued sets up the doctrine that pursuit is offensive to her sex, and wants to make it a felony. No genuinely attractive woman has any such desire. - H.L. Mencken, In Defense Of Women
4Q529

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04/12/2013 09:54 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
You can actually prove logic.
 Quoting: Face Palmer


Obviously, you have never read Karl Popper.

Michael
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04/12/2013 09:56 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
You can never truly be certain of anything, but that doesn\'t mean you shouldn\'t try.
 Quoting: theorigionalzombiekiller


And try i do. It tortures me every day. Love Bruce Campbell btws. he is super duper.
 Quoting: numewenon


Meditation goes beyond mind, hence transcending logics too.
Face Palmer

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04/12/2013 09:56 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
You can actually prove logic.
 Quoting: Face Palmer


Obviously, you have never read Karl Popper.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


No, never heard of him? I will look him up, I love stuff like this. Which book you mean exactly?

Last Edited by Face Palmer on 04/12/2013 09:57 AM
"The world will soon wake up to the reality that everyone is broke and can collect nothing from the bankrupt, who are owed unlimited amounts by the insolvent, who are attempting to make late payments on a bank holiday in the wrong country, with an unacceptable currency, against defaulted collateral, of which nobody is sure who holds title."

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

The woman who is not pursued sets up the doctrine that pursuit is offensive to her sex, and wants to make it a felony. No genuinely attractive woman has any such desire. - H.L. Mencken, In Defense Of Women
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 09:58 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
I guess the core problem is, you cannot define logic without using logic.
 Quoting: Face Palmer


Exactly!

You put it well right there. I think that is part of what was trying to say.

Now does that mean you must believe logic to be true?
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 09:58 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
You can never truly be certain of anything, but that doesn\'t mean you shouldn\'t try.
 Quoting: theorigionalzombiekiller


And try i do. It tortures me every day. Love Bruce Campbell btws. he is super duper.
 Quoting: numewenon


Meditation goes beyond mind, hence transcending logics too.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1540638


another thing. What would no logic be like? anti-logic? you could not have it logically.
BRIEF

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04/12/2013 10:00 AM

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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
Logic is provable...it asks if this, then that, and so on and so forth...
I never forgive and I never forget

I am a licensed firearm holder. I will, under protection of law, use lethal force if attacked.

Briefcut4892
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04/12/2013 10:00 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
You can never truly be certain of anything, but that doesn\\\'t mean you shouldn\\\'t try.
 Quoting: theorigionalzombiekiller


And try i do. It tortures me every day. Love Bruce Campbell btws. he is super duper.
 Quoting: numewenon


Meditation goes beyond mind, hence transcending logics too.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1540638


another thing. What would no logic be like? anti-logic? you could not have it logically.
 Quoting: numewenon


Your way of thinking is caught in duality of opposites.
Anonymous Coward
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04/12/2013 10:02 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
Logic is provable...it asks if this, then that, and so on and so forth...
 Quoting: BRIEF


if dilligent enough you will come to its frontier ...
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 10:04 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
Logic is provable...it asks if this, then that, and so on and so forth...
 Quoting: BRIEF


And that is why I trust only logic. And see... I trust it, but with reason but the reason based on what I am trusting.
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 10:06 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
...


And try i do. It tortures me every day. Love Bruce Campbell btws. he is super duper.
 Quoting: numewenon


Meditation goes beyond mind, hence transcending logics too.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1540638


another thing. What would no logic be like? anti-logic? you could not have it logically.
 Quoting: numewenon


Your way of thinking is caught in duality of opposites.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1540638


ahhh
4Q529

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04/12/2013 10:06 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
You can actually prove logic.
 Quoting: Face Palmer


Obviously, you have never read Karl Popper.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


No, never heard of him? I will look him up, I love stuff like this. Which book you mean exactly?
 Quoting: Face Palmer


Can't remember the title.

His ultimate conclusion: "The fundamental assumptions of any definitional system cannot be proven", or something to that effect.

The argument goes "If...then".

The "if" cannot be proven. It is assumed to be a given.

A radical over-simplification; but that's the gist.

Logic has to do with the fundamental structures of the consciousness of the 'thinker'.

But there are other approaches to reality; for example, poetry.

Poetry can never be proven.

Poetry approaches the issue of truth from a completely different perspective.

"The moon was a ghostly galleon, tossed upon cloudy seas" is, for example, a truth; but it cannot be proven, nevertheless.

Michael
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04/12/2013 10:07 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
...


Meditation goes beyond mind, hence transcending logics too.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1540638


another thing. What would no logic be like? anti-logic? you could not have it logically.
 Quoting: numewenon


Your way of thinking is caught in duality of opposites.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1540638


ahhh
 Quoting: numewenon


Yeah, your avatar is guite fitting too lol
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 10:10 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
You can actually prove logic.
 Quoting: Face Palmer


Obviously, you have never read Karl Popper.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


No, never heard of him? I will look him up, I love stuff like this. Which book you mean exactly?
 Quoting: Face Palmer


Can't remember the title.

His ultimate conclusion: "The fundamental assumptions of any definitional system cannot be proven", or something to that effect.

The argument goes "If...then".

The "if" cannot be proven. It is assumed to be a given.

A radical over-simplification; but that's the gist.

Logic has to do with the fundamental structures of the consciousness of the 'thinker'.

But there are other approaches to reality; for example, poetry.

Poetry can never be proven.

Poetry approaches the issue of truth from a completely different perspective.

"The moon was a ghostly galleon, tossed upon cloudy seas" is, for example, a truth; but it cannot be proven, nevertheless.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


Sort of like mathematics... you have your axioms as the basis. You cannot prove these "ifs"

See that's where it gets all trippy to my mind. because the axiom of logic is the assumption that logic is logic.

I don't know if i can write down the strange feeling it gives me in words when I think too hard about it.
Anonymous Coward
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04/12/2013 10:13 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
...


Obviously, you have never read Karl Popper.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


No, never heard of him? I will look him up, I love stuff like this. Which book you mean exactly?
 Quoting: Face Palmer


Can\'t remember the title.

His ultimate conclusion: \"The fundamental assumptions of any definitional system cannot be proven\", or something to that effect.

The argument goes \"If...then\".

The \"if\" cannot be proven. It is assumed to be a given.

A radical over-simplification; but that\'s the gist.

Logic has to do with the fundamental structures of the consciousness of the \'thinker\'.

But there are other approaches to reality; for example, poetry.

Poetry can never be proven.

Poetry approaches the issue of truth from a completely different perspective.

\"The moon was a ghostly galleon, tossed upon cloudy seas\" is, for example, a truth; but it cannot be proven, nevertheless.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


Sort of like mathematics... you have your axioms as the basis. You cannot prove these \"ifs\"

See that\'s where it gets all trippy to my mind. because the axiom of logic is the assumption that logic is logic.

I don\'t know if i can write down the strange feeling it gives me in words when I think too hard about it.
 Quoting: numewenon


The proof is empirical.
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 10:13 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
and as for the poetry thing, I think see what this guy means.

I find it interesting that if logic created poetry that is not necessarily logical to the reader, it is still logical that was to be created because logic could not allow it to be any other way.
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 10:15 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
The proof is empirical.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1540638


Which is based on you as an "I", which I cannot even prove logically to exist, observing it.
4Q529

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04/12/2013 10:15 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
...


Obviously, you have never read Karl Popper.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


No, never heard of him? I will look him up, I love stuff like this. Which book you mean exactly?
 Quoting: Face Palmer


Can't remember the title.

His ultimate conclusion: "The fundamental assumptions of any definitional system cannot be proven", or something to that effect.

The argument goes "If...then".

The "if" cannot be proven. It is assumed to be a given.

A radical over-simplification; but that's the gist.

Logic has to do with the fundamental structures of the consciousness of the 'thinker'.

But there are other approaches to reality; for example, poetry.

Poetry can never be proven.

Poetry approaches the issue of truth from a completely different perspective.

"The moon was a ghostly galleon, tossed upon cloudy seas" is, for example, a truth; but it cannot be proven, nevertheless.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


Sort of like mathematics... you have your axioms as the basis. You cannot prove these "ifs"

See that's where it gets all trippy to my mind. because the axiom of logic is the assumption that logic is logic.

I don't know if i can write down the strange feeling it gives me in words when I think too hard about it.
 Quoting: numewenon


Right.

Popper was a mathematician first.

What you are experiencing is the transition between dimensions of consciousness; between the consciousness of the 'thinker' and the consciousness of the "self"; which can be summarized as the difference between science and logic and poetry and the lyrics of songs.

But there is another dimension of consciousness beyond these two dimensions as well:

[link to science-of-consciousness.blogspot.com]

Ultimately, the three dimensions of consciousness is neither a logical, nor a poetical description of reality; but, rather, something that can be directly observed.

Michael
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 10:16 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
k g2g for now dog needs some major exercise. bbl!

<3
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04/12/2013 10:16 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
The proof is empirical.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1540638


Which is based on you as an \"I\", which I cannot even prove logically to exist, observing it.
 Quoting: numewenon


Going in the right direction: you are the most real \"thing\" in your life. True

Still not real enough yet.
K.Kool

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04/12/2013 10:17 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
Logic is a way of thinking, but it isn't a belief, more like a skill, to be able to think logically.
numewenon  (OP)

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04/12/2013 10:17 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
...


No, never heard of him? I will look him up, I love stuff like this. Which book you mean exactly?
 Quoting: Face Palmer


Can't remember the title.

His ultimate conclusion: "The fundamental assumptions of any definitional system cannot be proven", or something to that effect.

The argument goes "If...then".

The "if" cannot be proven. It is assumed to be a given.

A radical over-simplification; but that's the gist.

Logic has to do with the fundamental structures of the consciousness of the 'thinker'.

But there are other approaches to reality; for example, poetry.

Poetry can never be proven.

Poetry approaches the issue of truth from a completely different perspective.

"The moon was a ghostly galleon, tossed upon cloudy seas" is, for example, a truth; but it cannot be proven, nevertheless.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


Sort of like mathematics... you have your axioms as the basis. You cannot prove these "ifs"

See that's where it gets all trippy to my mind. because the axiom of logic is the assumption that logic is logic.

I don't know if i can write down the strange feeling it gives me in words when I think too hard about it.
 Quoting: numewenon


Right.

Popper was a mathematician first.

What you are experiencing is the transition between dimensions of consciousness; between the consciousness of the 'thinker' and the consciousness of the "self"; which can be summarized as the difference between science and logic and poetry and the lyrics of songs.

But there is another dimension of consciousness beyond these two dimensions as well:

[link to science-of-consciousness.blogspot.com]

Ultimately, the three dimensions of consciousness is neither a logical, nor a poetical description of reality; but, rather, something that can be directly observed.

Michael
 Quoting: 4Q529


mmm yes i think this is the kind of stuff i was looking for. I'll look at it when I get back!

thanks sir.
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04/12/2013 10:18 AM
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Re: Is Logic a Belief?
Logic is a way of thinking, but it isn\'t a belief, more like a skill, to be able to think logically.
 Quoting: K.Kool


Yes, logical thinking is better than the illogical one.





GLP