Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 1,837 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 56,006
Pageviews Today: 107,956Threads Today: 48Posts Today: 801
01:28 AM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make

 
DruDay
Offer Upgrade

User ID: 33350609
United States
03/12/2013 08:19 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
I thought this was pretty interesting...apparently some scientists are saying that the Large Hadron Collider could make mini-black holes a lot easier than previously thought. What's disturbing though is all the "assumptions" being made saying that they are perfectly safe. I've made bold all the disturbing parts.

How to create a black hole

So far, researchers have detected no black holes at the Large Hadron Collider. Still, theoretical interest in this possibility remains alive. Now, using supercomputers, researchers simulating collisions among particles zipping near the speed of light have shown that black holes could form at lower energies than previously thought.
This new discovery is rooted in Einstein's theory of relativity. First, through his famous equation E = mc2, Einstein revealed that mass and energy are related. This means the greater the energy of a particle — say, the faster a particle gets accelerated in a collider — the greater its mass becomes.
Next, Einstein's theory explains that mass curves the fabric of space and time, generating the phenomenon known as gravity. As particles zip along within particle colliders, they warp space-timeand can focus energy much as glass lenses focus light.
When two particles collide, each one can focus the energy of the other. If scientists use models based on classical relativity that exclude notions of extra dimensions, "one might expect black hole formation at one-third the energy" than previously expected, researcher Frans Pretorius, a theoretical physicist at Princeton University, told LiveScience.
Still, conventional physics suggest it would take a quadrillion, or a million-billion, times more energy to form a microscopic black hole than the Large Hadron Collider is capable of, so even a third of that is beyond human reach. Scenarios based on extra dimensions could have black holes form at a lower energy, "but they make no concrete predictions on what it should be," Pretorius said.

Risk-free black holes

As frightening as black holes might seem, if particle accelerators on Earth can generate them, such infinitesimal entities pose no risk to the planet.
"The one common misconception about the small black holes that may form at the Large Hadron Collider is that they would swallow the Earth," Pretorius said. "With about as much confidence as we can say anything in science, this is completely impossible."
To start with, theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking calculated all black holes should lose mass over time, giving it off as so-called Hawking radiation. Tiny black holes should shrink via such evaporation faster than they grow by gobbling up matter, dying within a fraction of a second, before they could engorge on any significant amount of matter.
Even if one assumes Hawking is wrong and that black holes are more stable than that, the tiny black holes would pose no danger. Because the microscopic black holes would be created within a particle accelerator, they should keep enough speed to escape from Earth's gravity. Moreover, if any get trapped, they are so tiny it would take each one more than the current age of the universe to destroy even a milligram of Earth matter.
"These black holes would be too small to consume any significant amount of matter," Pretorius said.

Pretorius and his colleague William East detailed their findings online March 7 in the journal Physical Review Letters.

[link to news.yahoo.com]

Last Edited by DruDay on 03/12/2013 08:30 PM
DruDay  (OP)

User ID: 33350609
United States
03/12/2013 08:39 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
I partly blame whoever wrote this article because it makes the science sound so blatantly irresponsible. I generally think that particle accelerators are really cool and can do a lot to help our understanding of science. But at what point does "coolness" end and responsibility begins? What if the LHC somehow produces a couple million mini-black holes on accident? And what if they don't really "evaporate"? And how would they react if they were in close proximity to each other? I may not be a physicist...but it sounds like a lot of questions and the article does little to comfort the reader.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 972714
New Zealand
03/12/2013 09:28 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
Most people near accelerators don't know about 'sky dose' from neutron beams or scattered components.
DruDay  (OP)

User ID: 33350609
United States
03/12/2013 10:04 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
I'm guessing "sky dose" is the same as "skyshine"...Not really sure about the physics, but I think the faster the particles go the more shielding is needed to protect the outside environment.
Halcyon Dayz, FCD

User ID: 31033756
Netherlands
03/13/2013 12:54 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
Much higher energy collisions happen in nature all the time, when high-Z cosmic particles hit the atmosphere.
If such collisions produce nano-black holes, such black holes must be harmless.

After all, Earth is still here.

I'm guessing "sky dose" is the same as "skyshine"...Not really sure about the physics, but I think the faster the particles go the more shielding is needed to protect the outside environment.
 Quoting: DruDay

It goes the other way around as well.
They don't want outside radiation to mess with their very sensitive detectors.
That's why the big ones are underground.
book
Reaching for the sky makes you taller.

Hi! My name is Halcyon Dayz and I'm addicted to morans.
DruDay  (OP)

User ID: 33350609
United States
03/13/2013 09:44 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
Yeah, that's true...just hope there are no "unintended" consequences. It's an interesting subject though. Last I heard they were revamping the LHC to make particles go faster and produce more energies. Who knows what else will be discovered.
DruDay  (OP)

User ID: 33350609
United States
03/13/2013 09:50 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
maybe they are making sinkholes damned
 Quoting: mizmojo


Mini-black holes and sinkholes! Gotta love the doom!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 18278609
Philippines
03/13/2013 09:52 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
I wonder how quickly a mini becomes a monster.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 18278609
Philippines
03/13/2013 09:55 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
I thought this was pretty interesting...apparently some scientists are saying that the Large Hadron Collider could make mini-black holes a lot easier than previously thought. What's disturbing though is all the "assumptions" being made saying that they are perfectly safe. I've made bold all the disturbing parts.

How to create a black hole

So far, researchers have detected no black holes at the Large Hadron Collider. Still, theoretical interest in this possibility remains alive. Now, using supercomputers, researchers simulating collisions among particles zipping near the speed of light have shown that black holes could form at lower energies than previously thought.
This new discovery is rooted in Einstein's theory of relativity. First, through his famous equation E = mc2, Einstein revealed that mass and energy are related. This means the greater the energy of a particle — say, the faster a particle gets accelerated in a collider — the greater its mass becomes.
Next, Einstein's theory explains that mass curves the fabric of space and time, generating the phenomenon known as gravity. As particles zip along within particle colliders, they warp space-timeand can focus energy much as glass lenses focus light.
When two particles collide, each one can focus the energy of the other. If scientists use models based on classical relativity that exclude notions of extra dimensions, "one might expect black hole formation at one-third the energy" than previously expected, researcher Frans Pretorius, a theoretical physicist at Princeton University, told LiveScience.
Still, conventional physics suggest it would take a quadrillion, or a million-billion, times more energy to form a microscopic black hole than the Large Hadron Collider is capable of, so even a third of that is beyond human reach. Scenarios based on extra dimensions could have black holes form at a lower energy, "but they make no concrete predictions on what it should be," Pretorius said.

Risk-free black holes

As frightening as black holes might seem, if particle accelerators on Earth can generate them, such infinitesimal entities pose no risk to the planet.
"The one common misconception about the small black holes that may form at the Large Hadron Collider is that they would swallow the Earth," Pretorius said. "With about as much confidence as we can say anything in science, this is completely impossible."
To start with, theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking calculated all black holes should lose mass over time, giving it off as so-called Hawking radiation. Tiny black holes should shrink via such evaporation faster than they grow by gobbling up matter, dying within a fraction of a second, before they could engorge on any significant amount of matter.
Even if one assumes Hawking is wrong and that black holes are more stable than that, the tiny black holes would pose no danger. Because the microscopic black holes would be created within a particle accelerator, they should keep enough speed to escape from Earth's gravity. Moreover, if any get trapped, they are so tiny it would take each one more than the current age of the universe to destroy even a milligram of Earth matter.
"These black holes would be too small to consume any significant amount of matter," Pretorius said.

Pretorius and his colleague William East detailed their findings online March 7 in the journal Physical Review Letters.

[link to news.yahoo.com]
 Quoting: DruDay


it always starts like that
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1259549
United States
03/13/2013 09:58 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
I'm a novice at such things, but I'd think any black hole would require a tremendous mass.
DruDay  (OP)

User ID: 33350609
United States
03/13/2013 10:01 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make


Last Edited by DruDay on 03/13/2013 10:03 AM
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 18278609
Philippines
03/13/2013 10:05 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
I'm a novice at such things, but I'd think any black hole would require a tremendous mass.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1259549


If I were to compressed you or even a flea down to your or the flea's Schwarzschild radius you (or the flea) would create a black hole.
Starknight

User ID: 33519311
Venezuela
03/13/2013 10:10 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
Nice, but I am yet to fully comprehend the pragmatism in this. Sadly, pure scientific arrogance would be lame, to say the least
1 John 1–3._ 1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.

@Starknight921
Tantalus

User ID: 26401157
United States
03/13/2013 10:14 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
Mini-Black holes are impossible. Think about it.

The core concept behind a black hole states that it is an object that has such a large mass that it generates a gravitational field so powerful that light cannot even escape, thus rendering it a "black hole", due to the lack of light.

Tell me, how can anything "mini" or "nano" or "sub atomic" generate that kind of gravity. Gravity requires mass. Anything "mini" surely doesnt have enough mass. Think about it, black holes have thousands of times the mass of our sun. So, something at the atomic level could have thousands of times the mass of our sun? I dont think so.

Mini Black Holes = Stupidity
"Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither"
--Benjamin Franlkin

No one ever said freedom was safe. Upon true understanding of the concepts of freedom, you shall realize that freedom is the most dangerous choice of lifestyle. There are no guarantees in freedom but those one provides for themselves, at their own will. True freedom comes with extreme personal risk. Are you willing to take the risk?

Thread: No One Ever Said Freedom Was Safe - A Short Thesis on Gun Control

------------------------
Other Interesting Threads by Tantalus:
Thread: Anunnaki, Nibiru, Brown Dwarfs, and Gravitational Time Dilation
Thread: Amazing Connection!! The Great Pyramid was a Weapon. Valles Marineris the Result?
Thread: The True Nature of the Simulation
Thread: The Fractal Nature of Time and Matter, The Higgs Field and The Inter-Cosmic Macro-Fractal Electro-Chemical Brain.
DruDay  (OP)

User ID: 33350609
United States
03/13/2013 10:14 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
...


Try to explain this to the massive tiny black thing we have at center of our Galaxy tounge
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36090076


There's not one there,they do not exist. It is a flawed assumption based on theoretical models.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35798449



 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36090076


Omg not a video. I must be wrong!

Read this: [link to www.sjcrothers.plasmaresources.com]

It has maths and stuff but don't be scared.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35798449


You must be wrong because of this:
[link to www.youtube.com]

Anyways, at least I think that's funny. :)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 865798
United States
03/13/2013 10:14 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
bump for later
just a question for tomorrow
User ID: 36090076
Italy
03/13/2013 10:16 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
Even if one assumes Hawking is wrong and that black holes are more stable than that, the tiny black holes would pose no danger. Because the microscopic black holes would be created within a particle accelerator, they should keep enough speed to escape from Earth's gravity. Moreover, if any get trapped, they are so tiny it would take each one more than the current age of the universe to destroy even a milligram of Earth matter.
"These black holes would be too small to consume any significant amount of matter," Pretorius said.
Pretorius and his colleague William East detailed their findings online March 7 in the journal Physical Review Letters.

[link to news.yahoo.com]
 Quoting: DruDay


Yesterday they told Hawking is true and there's no risk as tiny black holes evaporates in a fraction of second

today they tell Hawking is wrong and that black holes are more stable than that but "if any get trapped, they are so tiny it would take each one more than the current age of the universe to destroy even a milligram of Earth matter."

tomorrow they will tell that tiny black holes grow up exponentially and in few years they consume enough internal earth masses to cause 9+ quakes like japan one?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35798449
United Kingdom
03/13/2013 10:19 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
There is no danger, black holes don't exist. They are theoretical constructs based on flawed assumptions.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 36090076
Italy
03/13/2013 10:29 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
There is no danger, black holes don't exist. They are theoretical constructs based on flawed assumptions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35798449


Try to explain this to the massive tiny black thing we have at center of our Galaxy tounge
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35798449
United Kingdom
03/13/2013 10:42 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
There is no danger, black holes don't exist. They are theoretical constructs based on flawed assumptions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35798449


Try to explain this to the massive tiny black thing we have at center of our Galaxy tounge
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36090076


There's not one there,they do not exist. It is a flawed assumption based on theoretical models.
mizmojo

User ID: 31781644
United States
03/13/2013 10:46 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
maybe they are making sinkholes damned
howdy
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 36090076
Italy
03/13/2013 11:01 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
There is no danger, black holes don't exist. They are theoretical constructs based on flawed assumptions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35798449


Try to explain this to the massive tiny black thing we have at center of our Galaxy tounge
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36090076


There's not one there,they do not exist. It is a flawed assumption based on theoretical models.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35798449


Anonymous Coward
User ID: 35798449
United Kingdom
03/13/2013 11:09 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
There is no danger, black holes don't exist. They are theoretical constructs based on flawed assumptions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35798449


Try to explain this to the massive tiny black thing we have at center of our Galaxy tounge
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36090076


There's not one there,they do not exist. It is a flawed assumption based on theoretical models.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 35798449



 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 36090076


Omg not a video. I must be wrong!

Read this: [link to www.sjcrothers.plasmaresources.com]

It has maths and stuff but don't be scared.
Halcyon Dayz, FCD

User ID: 31033756
Netherlands
03/13/2013 05:16 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
Mini-Black holes are impossible. Think about it.

The core concept behind a black hole states that it is an object that has such a large mass that it generates a gravitational field so powerful that light cannot even escape, thus rendering it a "black hole", due to the lack of light.
 Quoting: Tantalus

Such a large mass compared to its size.
It's all about density.

A 1 kg ball made of lead will have a greater surface gravity than a 1 kg ball made of iron.
Because the lead ball's surface is closer to its centre of mass.

If you'd could compress a proton down to below the size of the Schwarzschild radius of such a mass, yes you would have an area of space where gravity would be so high that the escape velocity would exceed the speed of light.
book
Reaching for the sky makes you taller.

Hi! My name is Halcyon Dayz and I'm addicted to morans.
DruDay  (OP)

User ID: 33350609
United States
03/14/2013 07:05 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
Unrelated to the black holes but interesting because it now has been reported by CERN (who runs the LHC) that the Higgs particle has been found. There is already a thread about it.

Thread: PHYSICISTS: WE'VE FOUND 'GOD PARTICLE'
Dr. AstroModerator
Senior Forum Moderator

User ID: 4211721
United States
03/14/2013 07:20 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
Now if they could just find a way to make it AND stabilize it. Titortards! We ride!
bttf
astrobanner2
Tantalus

User ID: 28028396
United States
03/18/2013 07:32 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
Mini-Black holes are impossible. Think about it.

The core concept behind a black hole states that it is an object that has such a large mass that it generates a gravitational field so powerful that light cannot even escape, thus rendering it a "black hole", due to the lack of light.
 Quoting: Tantalus

Such a large mass compared to its size.
It's all about density.

A 1 kg ball made of lead will have a greater surface gravity than a 1 kg ball made of iron.
Because the lead ball's surface is closer to its centre of mass.

If you'd could compress a proton down to below the size of the Schwarzschild radius of such a mass, yes you would have an area of space where gravity would be so high that the escape velocity would exceed the speed of light.
book
 Quoting: Halcyon Dayz, FCD


However, to be defined as a "Black Hole", it must generate enough gravity to capture light. As far as I know, the speed of light is constant, no mater the relative scale. Whatever the relative mass is in comparison to size, I doubt any object defined as "mini" generates enough gravity to capture light. There is no such thing as a mini black hole.
"Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither"
--Benjamin Franlkin

No one ever said freedom was safe. Upon true understanding of the concepts of freedom, you shall realize that freedom is the most dangerous choice of lifestyle. There are no guarantees in freedom but those one provides for themselves, at their own will. True freedom comes with extreme personal risk. Are you willing to take the risk?

Thread: No One Ever Said Freedom Was Safe - A Short Thesis on Gun Control

------------------------
Other Interesting Threads by Tantalus:
Thread: Anunnaki, Nibiru, Brown Dwarfs, and Gravitational Time Dilation
Thread: Amazing Connection!! The Great Pyramid was a Weapon. Valles Marineris the Result?
Thread: The True Nature of the Simulation
Thread: The Fractal Nature of Time and Matter, The Higgs Field and The Inter-Cosmic Macro-Fractal Electro-Chemical Brain.
TastyThoughts

User ID: 1308649
United States
03/18/2013 07:36 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
CERN 70% chance of Strangelets is an old school search term. It may come in handy. The word Strangelets.

Last Edited by TastyThoughts on 03/18/2013 07:39 PM
"They cannot see what's-up if They are looking down." (TastyThoughts)
"Something is smelly! Something is smelly, like an old barnacle encrusted shoe washing ashore in the middle of summer." (TastyThoughts)
"Yes happy Earth day. Now go tell the wicked to stop damaging the Human Species therefore/and the Earth; For, they are discombobulating the entire Universe and upsetting the Most High God." (TastyThoughts)
M1.618

User ID: 35747086
United States
03/18/2013 08:24 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
Comforting... but are there not other areas we should be investing our resources?
wmMmw
Halcyon Dayz, FCD

User ID: 31033756
Netherlands
03/18/2013 08:48 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
However, to be defined as a "Black Hole", it must generate enough gravity to capture light. As far as I know, the speed of light is constant, no mater the relative scale. Whatever the relative mass is in comparison to size, I doubt any object defined as "mini" generates enough gravity to capture light. There is no such thing as a mini black hole.
 Quoting: Tantalus

Apart from being a string of non-sequiturs, how did you get from DOUBTING something to CONCLUDING something.
Either you know, or you don't know.

Do the numbers, than you'll know.
book
Reaching for the sky makes you taller.

Hi! My name is Halcyon Dayz and I'm addicted to morans.
Tantalus

User ID: 36466764
United States
03/18/2013 09:02 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Scientists Say Mini-Black Holes Easier to Make
However, to be defined as a "Black Hole", it must generate enough gravity to capture light. As far as I know, the speed of light is constant, no mater the relative scale. Whatever the relative mass is in comparison to size, I doubt any object defined as "mini" generates enough gravity to capture light. There is no such thing as a mini black hole.
 Quoting: Tantalus

Apart from being a string of non-sequiturs, how did you get from DOUBTING something to CONCLUDING something.
Either you know, or you don't know.

Do the numbers, than you'll know.
book
 Quoting: Halcyon Dayz, FCD


So, you are saying that the speed of light is not constant, and is subject the laws of relativity? That's bold.
"Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither"
--Benjamin Franlkin

No one ever said freedom was safe. Upon true understanding of the concepts of freedom, you shall realize that freedom is the most dangerous choice of lifestyle. There are no guarantees in freedom but those one provides for themselves, at their own will. True freedom comes with extreme personal risk. Are you willing to take the risk?

Thread: No One Ever Said Freedom Was Safe - A Short Thesis on Gun Control

------------------------
Other Interesting Threads by Tantalus:
Thread: Anunnaki, Nibiru, Brown Dwarfs, and Gravitational Time Dilation
Thread: Amazing Connection!! The Great Pyramid was a Weapon. Valles Marineris the Result?
Thread: The True Nature of the Simulation
Thread: The Fractal Nature of Time and Matter, The Higgs Field and The Inter-Cosmic Macro-Fractal Electro-Chemical Brain.





GLP