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| 06:11 AM | ||
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| 06:11 AM | ||
How did Jesus' death wash away our sins? | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1472636  United States07/28/2011 09:16 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I bailed out at age 16 when Catechism ended and I was forced to go to the ADULT fear-based mind control stuff... Quoting: Who I AM 1485307Just couldn't relate to it all... Best Wishes, My hubby was the same...as soon as he got confirmation money, he was gone! went somewhere that made more sense. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1240056 United States07/28/2011 09:16 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Scrodiddles
(OP) User ID: 1122076 United States07/28/2011 09:17 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... Quoting: ScrodiddlesI assure you, I know exactly what you are saying. I have heard the buzzwords more than I can count. I understand what happened according to the doctrine. But I don't understand how one begot the other. How does his death, in a real, logical explanation, actually cause God to forgive my sins? I hope you understand the question I am asking. I am trying to piece together exactly what happens at the moment of Jesus' death that just flips some spiritual switch in the world and now sins are actually things that you can get rid off. OK, we first have to look at the nature of God. First off, God is perfect, but God is not omnipotent. By this I mean that God cannot do anything that is against His own nature. God is limited in what He can do, He cannot lie, He cannot break his promises, etc. Second, God is perfect mercy. He only wants to be merciful to His children. But that brings us to God's next attribute. God is perfect justice. Because of this, God will judge all and His verdicts will be true. But this leads to a great dilemma for God. His children are sinful, and His innate justice demands that they must be punished for their sins, but God is also mercy, and His sense of mercy commands that His children be forgiven. By His own nature God is trapped, justice will only be served if the penalty for sin is paid, but His perfect mercy calls for Him to forgive. The ultimate penalty for sin is death, physical, spiritual or both. God wants to blot out the sin from His sight, but His perfect justice has to be served. No man can be punished for the sin of another, it would not be just. This is why Christ came to Earth. Jesus is God incarnated as a man. Only by subjecting Himself to torture, crucifixion and death, could God satisfy both perfect justice and perfect mercy. Upon Himself the Creator of man took all the sins of man, and "By His stripes we are healed". I disagree. I believe God is all. The good and bad. All things in perfect balance are God. Nothing is outside of God. So nothing is not of God. Also, you just said "No man can be punished for the sin of another" then went on to explain that Jesus was crucified for sins that were not his. These are the sort of logical errors that lead me away from the Bible in the first place. I thank you for your response, but have you actually let yourself entertain the option that some things may be in error, be it through translation or purposeful manipulation? I mean, the same people that wanted Jesus killed are also the same ones that used his teachings as a control tool. I am speaking of the Romans. But that is the Substitutionary Atonement as laid out in the Old Testament, the blood of the innocent lamb covered the sins of the people for the year, Christ, who you remember is called the Lamb of God, put His blood upon the Mercy Seat for eternity. Some one had to pay the price, and God's justice would not allow Him to accept anything but His own sacrifice as payment. By the way, saying that "God is all" is almost the same as saying "God is nothing", you have stripped Him of everything that makes Him unique, and are close to the pagan pantheistic cosmology.. I am not concerned with my beliefs being close to anything. Saying God is nothing is actually just as accurate as saying God is all. God can not choose to be something without something to be the comparison. How can God radiate Love if he has not created the absence of it? Things only exist in relation to their opposites. A tree only exists here because it does not exist there. I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1454000 United States07/28/2011 09:17 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... Quoting: ScrodiddlesHahaha. SURPRISINGLY, me too. Well, see what comes of this: [link to projectcamelotproductions.com] Of this, "Earth History" 1 through 4 are worth downloading and listening to (from 2002, but ever so relevant; prior to the video interviews from above): [link to bitsnoop.com] You'll need to download through uTorrent or something, the link above. If you have downloading issues, lemme know, I'll download and seed it myself. I am actually familiar with this, but not sure if I have seen this specific video set. I will watch it because you were kind enough to share it, but I will also say that I already believe we are each Ascending at our own rate. Jesus is our brother and "Graduated early" so to speak. The scriptures already agree to this same concept. Read plenty of Paul's writings. Paul. Thanks for the heads-up. [I'm seeding the vids! For as long as I can, that is. Wi-fi... that's all I can say. ;)] |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1475638 United States07/28/2011 09:18 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Who I AM User ID: 1485307 United States07/28/2011 09:18 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1328433 United States07/28/2011 09:18 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1194370 United States07/28/2011 09:19 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I am quite aware of the nature of spirit and there is a lack of explanation regarding the crucifixion in that context too. Quoting: ScrodiddlesIs it possible to consider that the explanation given in scripture is sufficient, but that the hearer simply cannot hear? Because he does not have ears to hear? I believe it was Jesus who is quoted as having said, he who has ears, let him hear. So that must indicate that there are those who do not have ears. I suppose that could be considered. JMHO, peace. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 498151 United States07/28/2011 09:19 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you. I am aware. I will state again, although I am sure it will continue, writing out the story in question does not answer the question about the story. You are just restating what is in the bible and what is in the bible is what is being examined here. It is what IS NOT in the Bible that I am looking for. And that is an explanation, within God's laws of how things work in our realms, of how Jesus dying on the cross actually resulted in our sins being forgiven. What happened? What transpired at death to cause a change like that? It just seems like a big thing to take without any details being offered to explain the intricate workings of a sacrifice. Non if it makes sense in this world and this world is where it happened. So claiming it is "spiritual" workings is not very helpful. I am quite aware of the nature of spirit and there is a lack of explanation regarding the crucifixion in that context too. Quoting: ScrodiddlesWhen you say God's laws, you mean physical laws correct? |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1454000 United States07/28/2011 09:19 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1394404 United States07/28/2011 09:19 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The smart-ass tone of your post suggests you think you are owed a simple explanation that you can put in your favorites folder. F**k you. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 596042There are a lot of strange people running around making this claim, and trying to persuade disinterested people that it matters. So I think it is reasonable to demand an explanation. Yes but what is unreasonable is to keep receiving a sensible, rational answer and keep rejecting it as not good enough. So far there is the "Jesus is Santa Claus for adults" posts, which have provided nothing but clutter. There are the sensible honest answers explaining the logical basis for answering OP's question. And then there is OP who's like "Guys you don't understand! I'm trying to take religion, and redefine and rename terms to come up with my own religion!" Just trying to set some reasonable boundaries here (like it matters or something...) There are post on here that I can not control and they may not be very fair towards Christianity, but I am trying to be reasonable. I will, however, disagree that actual answers were given. If you read back you will see that people have only repeated the story and offered no explanation. I have had the story repeated to me by very frustrated pastors all my life. I have even had one scream "I don't know! Just have faith, kid!" So forgive me if repetition is not accepted as a plausible answer. Simply put, the reason you're not finding an answer that is suitable for you is because you are looking for natural/physical measurements or properties for something that is spiritual/metaphysical. That is like trying to measure a concept with a yardstick, or like trying to find out how many pounds honesty weighs. You will never find an answer, because you cannot measure an abstraction with an empirical, or the spiritual with the natural. So, to ask about the physical or elemental exchanges that take place during a spiritual exchange...I'm afraid you will continue to frustrate yourself. That is the answer...that it is not the right question. |
| Daniel's Seventieth Seven User ID: 1071051 United States07/28/2011 09:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1454000 United States07/28/2011 09:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | OP is going to post a thread demanding scientific proof about speaking in tongues and pre-trib vs. post-trib pretty soon. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638I doubt that. OP is not the typical GLP sheep... I meant shill, not sheep. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1454000 United States07/28/2011 09:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1240056 United States07/28/2011 09:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 959838 United States07/28/2011 09:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1475638 United States07/28/2011 09:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | OP is going to post a thread demanding scientific proof about speaking in tongues and pre-trib vs. post-trib pretty soon. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638I doubt that. OP is not the typical GLP sheep... Yeah, but he seems to have trouble accepting an official answer so...he just might get that annoying. |
| Who I AM User ID: 1485307 United States07/28/2011 09:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Reality check: How does BELIEF "save" us? Isn't that just kind of building a false reality to live in so they can more easily control us? Come on... THINK! You can do it!!! Forget about all the crap for once and think for yourself! God gave you JUDGMENT too... Didn't He? |
| Scrodiddles
(OP) User ID: 1122076 United States07/28/2011 09:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I'm posting this again because either the OP didn't read it, wants to ignore it, or doesn't have a response.... Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638Hey buddy, this is religion. I'm explaining a belief that pertains to a specific religion. Your answer has been supplied logically, reasonably, and honestly. So all of your dodging and questions and blabbity-bla-bla basically could be reworded to say... "Hey guys, can I have physical proof for why I should have faith in something?" And it's just not going to happen. Religion requires your faith. Accepting the sacrifice of Jesus requires faith. Understanding it doesn't require faith. But accepting it sure will. So if you don't accept it, then don't. If you don't want to have faith in it, then don't. If you don't believe faith should ever be applied to an issue, then don't. But don't act like you aren't being given a substantial answer. I am aware of that. And I have dodged nothing. The "logical answers" you are claiming exist are just well versed repetitions of the story regarding the sacrifice. They are not explanations for how a crucifixion can wash the world of it's bad judgements. You opinion of a good answer clearly differs from mine which is why you are a believer. You don't require the explanation that I do. But you also can not get upset when the standards you set as a "good answer" are not acceptable to others. Also, I commend you for making me cringe with your use of the word "Buddy". I have never had that happen. I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1454000 United States07/28/2011 09:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | OP is going to post a thread demanding scientific proof about speaking in tongues and pre-trib vs. post-trib pretty soon. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638I doubt that. OP is not the typical GLP sheep... Yeah, but he seems to have trouble accepting an official answer so...he just might get that annoying. haha yes well there have been many like what you described, on this here website... ;) |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1475638 United States07/28/2011 09:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Perhaps I ask a question on this thread, not to receive and answer for myself, but to lead others to ask a question too. Quoting: ScrodiddlesWow- Deep! Yeah, basically OP isn't concerned with a real answer. He's more concerned with making everyone follow him around trying to accept his standard of what an "answer" is, all while showing us his own Build-A-Bear style religion. ;) |
| Scrodiddles
(OP) User ID: 1122076 United States07/28/2011 09:24 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I am quite aware of the nature of spirit and there is a lack of explanation regarding the crucifixion in that context too. Quoting: ScrodiddlesIs it possible to consider that the explanation given in scripture is sufficient, but that the hearer simply cannot hear? Because he does not have ears to hear? I believe it was Jesus who is quoted as having said, he who has ears, let him hear. So that must indicate that there are those who do not have ears. I suppose that could be considered. JMHO, peace. I see the point you are trying to make. But I don't question a word of what Jesus said. But he never said that his sacrifice would clear man of it's sins. That is written in by others. Jesus taught that the way to God is through his teachings. Not that you have to believe in him or go to Hell. His teachings where about loving one another and being selfless. I would agree that these actions are the way to God. I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup. |
| Scrodiddles
(OP) User ID: 1122076 United States07/28/2011 09:26 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you. I am aware. I will state again, although I am sure it will continue, writing out the story in question does not answer the question about the story. You are just restating what is in the bible and what is in the bible is what is being examined here. It is what IS NOT in the Bible that I am looking for. And that is an explanation, within God's laws of how things work in our realms, of how Jesus dying on the cross actually resulted in our sins being forgiven. What happened? What transpired at death to cause a change like that? It just seems like a big thing to take without any details being offered to explain the intricate workings of a sacrifice. Non if it makes sense in this world and this world is where it happened. So claiming it is "spiritual" workings is not very helpful. I am quite aware of the nature of spirit and there is a lack of explanation regarding the crucifixion in that context too. Quoting: ScrodiddlesWhen you say God's laws, you mean physical laws correct? Yes, I do. And "Physical laws" actually transcend the physical. Energy exists in all dimension and operates under all the same law. I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 498151 United States07/28/2011 09:26 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I see the point you are trying to make. But I don't question a word of what Jesus said. But he never said that his sacrifice would clear man of it's sins. That is written in by others. Jesus taught that the way to God is through his teachings. Not that you have to believe in him or go to Hell. His teachings where about loving one another and being selfless. I would agree that these actions are the way to God. Quoting: ScrodiddlesWhat do believe Jesus meant when he said "before Abraham was, I am!"? Thanks. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1194370 United States07/28/2011 09:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Perhaps I ask a question on this thread, not to receive and answer for myself, but to lead others to ask a question too. Quoting: ScrodiddlesWow- Deep! ;) Yeah, basically OP isn't concerned with a real answer. He's more concerned with making everyone follow him around trying to accept his standard of what an "answer" is, all while showing us his own Build-A-Bear style religion. lol @ 'build-a-bear'... But seriously. We are to show patience and long-suffering with people. Even as our LORD does with us... He is a young man who is asking a good question. I was not so different than he when I was a young lad. Lets show some patience. Even as our LORD does. Lets go with him an extra mile. Lets give him our coat. Lets love our neighbor as ourself. Lets show our love. peace, |
| Scrodiddles
(OP) User ID: 1122076 United States07/28/2011 09:28 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | OP is going to post a thread demanding scientific proof about speaking in tongues and pre-trib vs. post-trib pretty soon. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638I doubt that. OP is not the typical GLP sheep... Yeah, but he seems to have trouble accepting an official answer so...he just might get that annoying. I apologize if you find me annoying. But I think we can agree that "official" is a very subjective idea. I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup. |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1454000 United States07/28/2011 09:28 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I am quite aware of the nature of spirit and there is a lack of explanation regarding the crucifixion in that context too. Quoting: ScrodiddlesIs it possible to consider that the explanation given in scripture is sufficient, but that the hearer simply cannot hear? Because he does not have ears to hear? I believe it was Jesus who is quoted as having said, he who has ears, let him hear. So that must indicate that there are those who do not have ears. I suppose that could be considered. JMHO, peace. I see the point you are trying to make. But I don't question a word of what Jesus said. But he never said that his sacrifice would clear man of it's sins. That is written in by others. Jesus taught that the way to God is through his teachings. Not that you have to believe in him or go to Hell. His teachings where about loving one another and being selfless. I would agree that these actions are the way to God. Yes, the Law of One. :) |
| YAHisking
User ID: 1383366 United States07/28/2011 09:28 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I am actually being sincere here. I was raised in a Southern Babtist home and have read the bible a fair share of times, but I am at a total loss when it comes to understanding how Jesus dying on the cross translates into me being forgiven for my "sins". Quoting: ScrodiddlesAnd please don't just post scripture that just states it matter-of-factly as if I should ignore that we live in a world where things have to correlate. So they torture him, place him on a cross, and then wait for him to die. He passes away, is reborn and then ascends to heaven. Now I get forgiven if I have impatient thoughts? How does that work? Did he die, go to heaven and flip on a breaker switch, resurrect on earth to check if it worked and then just strolled on back to heaven? What happened during his death that made our sins forgivable? It's like a father bursting through the door and telling his son that cursing is now allowed in the house because he hit a deer on the way home. How in the world is it connected? I'll quote you: "I don't even believe the stuff I say." Why should anyone bother?  “Henceforth, from the treaty that divides my holy city, Jerusalem and the day upon which the house of Judah commences the sacrifice, I will anoint my people of the house of Judah who believe on my Son and on the house of Israel who believe on my Son, to prophecy to America, and all the earth for twelve hundred and three score days to this nations and all the nations who would conspire to wipe out my people and the nation of Israel. “When these days of prophesying are closed up, and on the day of my Passing Over my people as I did upon the firstborn of the lands of Egypt, I will send again the Death Angel upon the earth to reap a harvest into my kingdom and cast the timothy into the fires of eternal torment. I have decreed for twelve hundred and threescore days wars, pestilences, death, and the greatest earthquake upon the earth until the cup of my wrath is empty and all the earth is a desolation. ““Arise O sons of Islam, Russia and the many nations with you and no longer submit to evil, but learn of the Gentle King of Abraham, Yeshuah Ha Meshiach, Your Father and God. Look not to an Imam Mahdi, for there is no way to the great creator of all things than through the Son, who is the Father in the Flesh, and whose flesh will dwell in Your Temples of your fleshly bodies, and not in mosques.” “Shemah O Israel, hear the breath of My Spirit. I AM who AM, and will forever be the Father of Lights in the Flesh. Honor not the six pointed star of Astarte, six within six by six, for it is the number of the dogs of Orion, and the Red star of the Dragon. You O Israel have worn proudly the badge of Moloch and Kemosh, for you have marked your nation with the Mark of the Caldeans and circumscribers of the occult of all ages." |
| Anonymous Coward User ID: 1486642 United States07/28/2011 09:28 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1486642OK, we first have to look at the nature of God. First off, God is perfect, but God is not omnipotent. By this I mean that God cannot do anything that is against His own nature. God is limited in what He can do, He cannot lie, He cannot break his promises, etc. Second, God is perfect mercy. He only wants to be merciful to His children. But that brings us to God's next attribute. God is perfect justice. Because of this, God will judge all and His verdicts will be true. But this leads to a great dilemma for God. His children are sinful, and His innate justice demands that they must be punished for their sins, but God is also mercy, and His sense of mercy commands that His children be forgiven. By His own nature God is trapped, justice will only be served if the penalty for sin is paid, but His perfect mercy calls for Him to forgive. The ultimate penalty for sin is death, physical, spiritual or both. God wants to blot out the sin from His sight, but His perfect justice has to be served. No man can be punished for the sin of another, it would not be just. This is why Christ came to Earth. Jesus is God incarnated as a man. Only by subjecting Himself to torture, crucifixion and death, could God satisfy both perfect justice and perfect mercy. Upon Himself the Creator of man took all the sins of man, and "By His stripes we are healed". I disagree. I believe God is all. The good and bad. All things in perfect balance are God. Nothing is outside of God. So nothing is not of God. Also, you just said "No man can be punished for the sin of another" then went on to explain that Jesus was crucified for sins that were not his. These are the sort of logical errors that lead me away from the Bible in the first place. I thank you for your response, but have you actually let yourself entertain the option that some things may be in error, be it through translation or purposeful manipulation? I mean, the same people that wanted Jesus killed are also the same ones that used his teachings as a control tool. I am speaking of the Romans. But that is the Substitutionary Atonement as laid out in the Old Testament, the blood of the innocent lamb covered the sins of the people for the year, Christ, who you remember is called the Lamb of God, put His blood upon the Mercy Seat for eternity. Some one had to pay the price, and God's justice would not allow Him to accept anything but His own sacrifice as payment. By the way, saying that "God is all" is almost the same as saying "God is nothing", you have stripped Him of everything that makes Him unique, and are close to the pagan pantheistic cosmology.. I am not concerned with my beliefs being close to anything. Saying God is nothing is actually just as accurate as saying God is all. God can not choose to be something without something to be the comparison. How can God radiate Love if he has not created the absence of it? Things only exist in relation to their opposites. A tree only exists here because it does not exist there. Son, lame analogies from Philosophy 101 do not prove anything. God created the Cosmos, but God is also outside the Cosmos, God is here and there, at the same time, unlike your tree. Do not let yourself be mesmerized by your perceived intellect, far wiser men than you have grappled with God, and lost. God gave us His word, and the only thing standing between you and comprehension of His message is your ego. |
| Scrodiddles
(OP) User ID: 1122076 United States07/28/2011 09:29 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | research solar dieties and aryan sun myths Quoting: Anonymous Coward 959838libtard Are you signing your post as "libtard" or are you calling me "libtard"? Because I can assure you that politics don't factor into my life. I have no opinions on those games. I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup. |
