How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?

I think the better question you should ask is, is it loving for one to tell their kids that they are worthless sinners apart from you who deserve death if not for this. To take that even further, you should ask is it loving that the reason you are told this to start with, is because of something other people did that you had nothing to do with. In effect, you are being held responsible for something you never did, and were not alive to have even considered doing. Is that love to you? Would you ever treat your own children like this?

If you wouldn't, why would God? He's on a whole other level from us, and He's gonna act in a way even we know is no good? That simply doesn't make any sense.

Last Edited by ajk on 07/28/2011 10:56 PM

Riiiiiiiiiiiight

"kind" i mean king

i haven't discarded the Bible, it's a "book of 12" that I base my paradigm on... so to speak

Change gravities to God, and you'll understand the true meaning of all these different religions and why they have been put in place.

By taking our judgment upon him.

Thing about Jesus is that he probably was not a dick, but the superstitions that have grown up around his name have turned him into one.

Let me take a try at answering the ops original question...

First you have to start with some presuppositions: that god exists, that he is intelligent, all knowing, and has all power and authority of all of creation.

He spoke creation into existance, he said "let there be light" and there was light...therefore we can see a very important principle that is essential to all of existance...the natural world is bound by the authority of God's word. It can not exist without it. The indformation recieved from Gods word is necessary for existance.

And I mean this in a very real and physical sense...information is an integral and essential part to nature...consider quantum physics for example where merely the act of observing particles, or recieving information, has an effect on them. The point being, that information can and does have real physical effects on the natural world.

So heres the problem, what happens if God violates his own word, would this undo creation itself since existance hinges on the authority and truth of God's word?

In the beginning, in the garden of eden, when Adam and eve sinned, God had warned them the result of sin was death. God can not violate his own word, or it would null that words authority (This was part of the plan of satan, to make god into a liar and hypocrite so that he could ascend in power over him...all of which is impossible of course).

So since God can not violate his own law, that sin = death, the only alternative for him was to put a sacrifice in place to recieve the punishment...and he so loved the world, that he gave his own son to be that sacrifice...he could have let the world perish in its sin, but jesus took the punishment for us instead.

If he had not, God would have been bound by his original law to exact punishment on us because he can not violate his own word, otherwise satan would rule.

Now that might seem like just a legal argument, and you might ask, why not just not let anyone be punished? The problem as I said is that Gods word is a binding law on nature...he cant just say sin is death one day and contradict himself the next because the chaos of the hypocracy of gods word would undo creation...as I said, creation only exists by gods word, let there be light etc., man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of god. Therefore god can not lie, existance depends on it.

OP, please see page one. I DID answer your question. Im an open book Christian, you can ask me anything you want after you read my post. Sorry for confusion, but all things added to the book are damnable. Not trying to disrespect. Going to church is paramount, but I hope you realize that denominational churches teach you
"doctrines of demons" as explained in the bible. This means many churches today deviate from the written word and select what suits them best.. which is blasphemy.

Course it is, they gotta keep the people in line somehow, so of course anything that goes against the book will be put down.

Projection? That is so '70's! Are you surer your not a 55 year old hippie locked in a time warp?
You say you know nothing except the fact that you exist, but do you really know even that? What is existence? At the most basic level, theoretical physics claims that even matter does not exist, there are only vibrations. Everything we see, hear, feel and touch are nothing but various permutations of energy, and the whole of the universe is an illusion. Some say that we have to get beyond this world of illusion, to separate ourselves from what we perceive in order to see what is beyond this phantasm of reality.
What do I say of this view of existence? Bullshit.
I see you were raised Southern Baptist, so was I. I am a proud son of the South, my ancestors were Scots-Irish, Choctaws and Jews.Life as we know it is hard, and some may not see it as fair. But I see life as a school, we are here to learn. I grew up on a farm, I worked the land. I went to University, I became "educated". I have known pain. I have seen death up close and personal, and at nearly 50, I know that I have lived more than half my life. But what have I really learned in my near half century?
I have learned that good and evil exist, they are the reality of our time. I have learned that my IQ of 150 means nothing, that my intellectual arrogance was mere vanity. But the most important thing I have learned is that everything the Bible says is true. It took me many years to realize that nearly everything I had been taught by my archaeological mentor was rank speculation at best, damned lies at worst. I have seen things that shook me to the depths of my soul, things that my training and learned mindset refused to accept. But through this I finally learned that what I had been taught as a child is the only truth.
Jesus is Lord, and His name has power over evil.

OP, here is how you are saved.. you have to start here and of course attend church, lords supper, tithe.

"For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Do you understand that you are a sinner, and you believe that Jesus Christ came as the one and only Redeemer of sin? Are you ready to receive God’s gift of His Son, Jesus Christ? If so, believe in Christ, repent of your sins, and commit the rest of your life to Him as Lord:

“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.”

"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The Bible contradicts itself in a million different places, so sorry but that just doesn't work. God doesn't lie surely, but man does, and man wrote the Bible. God had nothing to do with it.

Last Edited by ajk on 07/28/2011 11:41 PM

Repent! Satan loves you more than Jesus!:preachy2::preachy3:

Actually, thank you. That is a damn good answer. I am serious too. I have asked vetted priests and never received an answer I understand.

Thank you.

Everyone on here seems to think I was saying they were wrong just because I did not accept their answer. It just means it was not right for me. But this one really works for me.

Awesome. I completely agree that God has created laws that must be worked within and no answer I got seem to work within said laws. But this works for me.

I can assure you it is a mere mind control cult. Nothing more

You can tell by the control it has of the minds of these poor adherents. The sad thing about these religious cults is that they set out to make their adherents less than their putative deity gave them the capability of becoming.

Let me ask you a question, if God created us and put us here, what would be the point of giving us the free will to experience all there is to experience, be it good things or bad alike, only to say: "Oh but you can't do this, you can't do this, and don't even think about doing this....." etc etc etc? Wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose of giving us the free will if He was gonna then limit it? How can one truly learn anything if a lot of it boils down to: "Obey because I say so"?

Furthermore, does it make any sense to you at all, that an unlimited God, would be so limited in that his truth can only come from one particular book and anything that goes against said book is simply false? If God is so unlimited, it would stand to reason no one book or belief system could contain Him no?

Last Edited by ajk on 07/29/2011 12:55 AM

How can you have free will if you don't have choice? And whats wrong with god telling us which of those options are good for us and which are bad?

Free will requires the ability to make choices. Choices require a difference of options. Some of those options will be good and some bad. So are you suggesting that God never should have created options in the first place? and that he should not have warned us to not choose the options that are bad for us?

...or are you saying that he should have never allowed us choices in the first place; thus negating our ability to have free will?

...Or perhaps your suggesting that God should not have made options that are bad and options that are good? But without black and white, good and evil, this and that...without differences...there could be no creation, because everything would be one homogeneous blob of sameness.

Free will works fine as long as we use it to make the right choices. And thankfully god even tells us which ones are right and which ones will hurt us.

But heres the thing...you wonder why God did this, yet man does the very same thing. Whenever we create a law, set up a fence, or even create a work of art, we make a distinction between two things, and create order. As long as order is maintained this system works. When the order is violated, the creation destructs. Is man wrong in creating order? Is chaos better?

As far as the book, and the different belief systems, I would suggest that they define and reveal the nature and character of god, and if one belief system says something different than the other...then how can they be talking about the same god? And if god chose to reveal himself to a people, whats wrong with them writing it down in a book? Compare the books, teachings and beliefs of the worlds religions...if they say different things about god then they cant be talking about the same god, any more than a woman can both be pregnant and not pregnant.

As it so happens, I believe that God chose to reveal himself to the jews first, then unto the gentiles because of covenants established with them by men of faith in their history. And I'm glad they wrote down what God revealed.

Here's the thing free will can not mean: OBEY OR DIE. It's no better than a rapist saying: "Ok if you do as I say you'll live, try and leave and I'll kill you. Oh but it's your choice."

There is no difference, it's spiritual rape.

What's the point of having free will to make a choice, if it's that limited? How can it be free if it's that limited? It can't.

His death didn't wash away our sins. But practicing forgiveness does. This is what he taught. Forgiveness transmutes Karma, you reap what you sow. judge not lest you be judged. etc. rken

what an terrible analogy. God is somehow a rapist, and the choice is between getting raped or death? Thats absurd.

Your suggesting the choices are the lesser of two evils. Thats not the choice god gives at all...its a choice between GOOD and EVIL,..not evil #1 and evil #2.

And what is your problem with God saying obey or die? If God said Don't stick a fork in a toaster...then I think OBEY is probably a pretty good choice to that command. When God tells us to do stuff, they are for our good...not so he can rape us as you put it.

And your wrong about choice and free will being limited...its not limited at all. You percieve it to be limited because you don't like consequences for your decisions.

Theres a huge difference between limiting choices and eliminating consequences. If you have the choice wether or not to jump off a cliff, that choice is only limited if God actually physically makes you unable to jump off the cliff. But your not limited, you can jump or not jump. What your saying however that if you decide to jump when God warns you not too, that some how God is an jerk because he didn't suspend the laws of gravity and make you float instead of hitting the ground. How arrogant is that!

Your entire argument boils down to a few things: 1. you think God is a jerk and his laws are bad for you (which is false, his commands are for our good not our evil) and 2. Your mad at God for, I guess, being God, and having the right to tell you what to do or make consequences for your actions. Newsflash...Hes God. Its his Right. Your not God.

SO if you don't like the fact that you can't magically float when you jump off cliffs so to speak, or get away with doing any of the other stuff God is nice enough to warn you aint a good for you...well, I don't know what else to tell you except I think God probably is a little smarter about the proper way the universe is supposed to work that you are.

That should feature in "Top Ten Lies Of All Time".
1. When Jesus saved some sinner girl , he clearly asked her to stop committing further sins
2. If Jesus is continuously washing away all sins of the believers , he is also continuously washing away all sins of the non believer (Since not believing Jesus is just one extra harmless sin)

Jesus knew the truth. If try to follow his convictions and remain virtuous, we too maybe able to arrive at the truth.

Come on, you dolts can't go make a new thread to bash Jesus or ask some dumb question in?

The man finally got his answer (and a greatly worded one, at that). Scurry along, critters. Time to suck new blood!

Okay but OP let me ask you this...


No. Shut up. Go make a new thread.

i dont want to wall of text this thread.
listen to these brethren


shai linne: atonement Q&A
[link to www.youtube.com]


Hazakim: salvation plan
[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

blood of the innocent is the atonement for SIN.
remember its by GRACE through FAITH.

in pragmatic terms...i hope this may helps.
anytime you think about committing a sin or get a inclination to sow into the flesh, think about the blood that was shed on Calvary and the promise he gives to each that call upon him and trust upon him by faith.

remember and recall why he did what he did and i trust you will turn from that act and seek the one that was pierced for there (that believe) iniquities. be it you as well OP.


by bringing remembrance for what he did on the cross "JESUS DEATH" keeps you from sinning thus "wash away your sins"

Jesus is just a reiteration of the old
Green Man myth or the Corn Goddess myth
(if you'll recall from your mythology
classes, Persephone had to "die" and
spend one season in "hell" each year in
order for the crops to grow). Jesus is
the scarecrow out in the fields. That
effigy has nothing to do with scaring
crows away (if you'll notice, it never
works) but rather to serve as a sacrifice
in proxy in order for the crops to grow.
Another poster said something about
Jesus "releasing his seed" when he died,
and I concur with this. It's a fertility
rite, ancient as the hills.

The garbage about sins and forgiveness
was added much later and is basically a
perversion of the original allegory of the
seasons.

This is perhaps the clone-bait thread of the year. This crap can be debated for eons as the clones never run out of mindless rhetoric explaining this BS.

Jesus is myth. He did not exist. Sin doesn't exist. We are not held accountable for what we do or fail to do. We answer to our souls which seek balance. If we create imbalance (karma) then our soul will seek to re-balance through reparation/restorative action. We reincarnate. Over and over and over. Thus, the entire notion that we live but once, had better cross the finish line squeaky clean or else, is religious bullshit.


But by all means, let the clone-a-thon continue.

Yes he is, and thankfully he's smarter than you too, because there is no way that the Bible God is the real God. No divine being would EVER be that evil!

I don't think God is a jerk at all, not the real God anyway. The Bible God though is, you really don't see the problem with obey me or die? Ok why don't you use that on your kid and see where that gets you? How is it you would be seen as a monster, and yet the God of the Bible is praised for it? Double standard much?

On limitations and free will, there's a difference between a just consequence, and outright torture and evil. Killing someone for disobedience, letting them burn and suffer forever and forever CLEARLY is an example of the latter. They're not gonna learn anything from it, so what the hell is the point?

That's the whole point of our being here, and the whole point of free will, to live, learn and experience things. The Bible God takes a lot of that away, how can we really learn anything if the choices are effectively removed from us on account of what will happen if we disobey? You can't.

And yes the Bible God IS a rapist. I don't care how you try and twist it, a God who demands obedience and holds death over you to get it, is not one bit better than a rapist who pushes his victim to give him what he wants. You can disagree with it till the cows come home, but it does not and will not ever change it.

Last Edited by ajk on 07/29/2011 05:11 AM