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"Infants" - Heaven or Hell?

 
Aenon
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11/15/2010 08:51 AM
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"Infants" - Heaven or Hell?

[link to www.youtube.com]

Have Christians been looking at this the wrong way?

If the soul is not affected by physical death (brain dead), then I can conclude that the soul is not affected by a blow to the head (brain damaged), then I believe it is safe to conclude that the soul would not be affected by an underdeveloped brain (infant).

The argument has to do with the current state of the brain (infantile, damaged, dead) and how that relates to and affects the soul. If I am correct on my first 2 points (damage and death), then what would prevent me from concluding one step further (infants brain)?
 Quoting:

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
CelticLegends

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11/15/2010 08:55 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?

[link to www.youtube.com]

Have Christians been looking at this the wrong way?

If the soul is not affected by physical death (brain dead), then I can conclude that the soul is not affected by a blow to the head (brain damaged), then I believe it is safe to conclude that the soul would not be affected by an underdeveloped brain (infant).

The argument has to do with the current state of the brain (infantile, damaged, dead) and how that relates to and affects the soul. If I am correct on my first 2 points (damage and death), then what would prevent me from concluding one step further (infants brain)?

 Quoting: Aenon


Interesting question

I might be starting a job soon, working with a young adult who's sustained brain damage and can't communicate verbally

It's probably gonna be more of an education for me than him, at least to begin with

Edit:
Downloading the video to watch later

Last Edited by CelticLegends on 11/15/2010 08:55 AM
It is the Thunderbolt that steers the Universe
- Heraclitus
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 08:55 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
If that is a quote from the vid, then the guy is an idiot and does not understand the Bible or our purpose here, at all.

(i can not watch vid, so can not comment further.)
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 08:58 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
unrepentant infants burn in hell.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 08:59 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
Does one think of God as being or having an infantile spirit?
Does the Creator make mistakes? No, I don't think so.

Think of this when you think of people in twisted and deformed bodies,etc...
Their souls are in those bodies,but yet,they see, and think and feel.

[link to www.mattieonline.com]


This child's life should be an inspiration to adults everywhere.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 09:00 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
unrepentant infants burn in hell.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 835530


It is God's will...
Truthseekr

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11/15/2010 09:00 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
reincarnation. reincarnation proof is all around you... the wheels of karma balances everything out... everything is balanced... everything just IS... if YOU want thigns to change- BE that change- if not- u better smile n go with thhe flow of the world..
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 09:03 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
unrepentant infants burn in hell.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 835530


Another idiot heard from...
Aenon  (OP)

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11/15/2010 09:23 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
If that is a quote from the vid, then the guy is an idiot and does not understand the Bible or our purpose here, at all.

(i can not watch vid, so can not comment further.)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1164989


Where is he wrong? And what do you know of our purpose here? Share with us.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 09:31 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
If that is a quote from the vid, then the guy is an idiot and does not understand the Bible or our purpose here, at all.

(i can not watch vid, so can not comment further.)


Where is he wrong? And what do you know of our purpose here? Share with us.
 Quoting: Aenon


A brain damaged adult is absolutely not like an infant.

An infant has not lived long enough to choose between God and satan (our purpose) - but an adult has.

To clarify - an infant is heaven bound -a brain damaged adult would be judged by his choices and actions while he was not damaged.
Aenon  (OP)

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11/15/2010 09:41 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
A brain damaged adult is absolutely not like an infant.

An infant has not lived long enough to choose between God and satan (our purpose) - but an adult has.

To clarify - an infant is heaven bound -a brain damaged adult would be judged by his choices and actions while he was not damaged.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1164989


To take your stance would be to deny a major basis of Christianity, namely Original Sin. All men are born into sin; all men need their sin to be atoned for them.

Also, you're assuming men must have full knowledge of their actions in order for them to be judged by their committing the actions. This concept does not hold water because of the nature of unregenerate man. Unregenerate man is almost completely unaware of his depraved state, and is literally incapable of having the ability to choose the path to eternal life apart from the saving grace of Christ through the regenerating properties and workings of the Holy Spirit.

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Aenon  (OP)

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11/15/2010 09:44 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
As a heads up to anyone else who wishes to understand the argument presented, please do watch the video. It might help solve the issue involved in events such as Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the conquest of Canaan (in many instances), and the command of the prophet Samuel to Saul to destroy the inhabitants of a city; all of which almost positively included the slaughter of infants.

If we hold to the view that these children were somehow righteous before God, then God's actions in these affairs were simply unrighteous. We know that this cannot be the case at all. Think about it.


Last Edited by Aenon on 11/15/2010 10:00 AM
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 09:48 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?

A brain damaged adult is absolutely not like an infant.

An infant has not lived long enough to choose between God and satan (our purpose) - but an adult has.

To clarify - an infant is heaven bound -a brain damaged adult would be judged by his choices and actions while he was not damaged.


To take your stance would be to deny a major basis of Christianity, namely Original Sin. All men are born into sin; all men need their sin to be atoned for them.

Also, you're assuming men must have full knowledge of their actions in order for them to be judged by their committing the actions. This concept does not hold water because of the nature of unregenerate man. Unregenerate man is almost completely unaware of his depraved state, and is literally incapable of having the ability to choose the path to eternal life apart from the saving grace of Christ through the regenerating properties and workings of the Holy Spirit.

 Quoting: Aenon


There is no such thing as original sin as committed by humans. You are lacking in knowledge of the scriptures.

The rest of your post is to stupid to comment on.

We are born with a clean slate - what we do with it is up to us.

Only one has been judged to hell at this time and that is satan.

And we most certainly are capable of choosing.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 09:51 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it. -Ecclesiastes 12.6-7



All return to God.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16) clarifies that there is a gulf separating souls, with the accepted in Abraham's bosom (Lazarus) and the estranged (rich man) on the far side because of his evil actions on earth. We are judged according to our lives here.

This is a matter of common sense. What could an infant possibly do in this world to warrant a separation from God upon death of the flesh?

I believe they are the souls too good for this world, but they must pass through the matrix…be born of water…to be saved.

Additionally, I believe that all souls are the same age ~ ancient.
Aenon  (OP)

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11/15/2010 09:54 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
There is no such thing as original sin as committed by humans. You are lacking in knowledge of the scriptures.

The rest of your post is to stupid to comment on.

We are born with a clean slate - what we do with it is up to us.

Only one has been judged to hell at this time and that is satan.

And we most certainly are capable of choosing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1164989


Capable of choosing? Absolutely. But capable of choosing eternal life apart from the Holy Spirit? Absolutely not.

To say we are born with a clean state goes against so much Scripture, I tire to even think of finding them to prove it. But, for the sake of the argument I will provide this:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
- Psalm 51:5


Only Satan has been judged to Hell? You have such horrible understanding of the Bible. Does Revelation 20:10 and 20:15 mean nothing to you? Matthew 25:41? Matthew 7:13?
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 10:10 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
here's what I don't understand...so, this baby is burning in hell for eternity, but since we only seem to know know things via comparison...won't the baby just learn to take eternal hell-fire as a basic fact of life? I mean, how can you appreciate the fact that you are suffering if you never know non-suffering?
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 10:13 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
here's what I don't understand...so, this baby is burning in hell for eternity, but since we only seem to know know things via comparison...won't the baby just learn to take eternal hell-fire as a basic fact of life? I mean, how can you appreciate the fact that you are suffering if you never know non-suffering?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 553712


No, sorry. That's unacceptable. You put actual thought into it and it makes sense. It just won't do.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 10:20 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
I think you make this way too complex.

1) Everyone is born in sin. The bible states this. Thus everyone must repent.
2) People who do not repent will be judged by their doings in life. see Rev 20,12
3) Infants usually didn't do anything bad in their short life.

Refer Mt 19,14, Mark 10,14 Luke 18,16 and Matthew 25,31 ff
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 10:25 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
Neither, just like every other animal on this rock. they will decompose...just like you
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 10:26 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
Neither, just like every other animal on this rock. they will decompose...just like you
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 997890


Every living thing ends up as shit......
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 10:26 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
Religion makes one stupid. Heaven and hell are myths.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 10:46 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
If an adult has an IQ of a child and cannot make a real choice that means Hes here so that others can see the glory of the Lord.

All children that pass away up to the age of accountability go to the Lord.

Puberty until about age 20 is when the big fight between a person and the Lord occurs.
Aenon  (OP)

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11/15/2010 11:11 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
I think you make this way too complex.

1) Everyone is born in sin. The bible states this. Thus everyone must repent.
2) People who do not repent will be judged by their doings in life. see Rev 20,12
3) Infants usually didn't do anything bad in their short life.

Refer Mt 19,14, Mark 10,14 Luke 18,16 and Matthew 25,31 ff
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1164819


It's very easy. To that I agree. However, in order to repent, one must first believe. In order to believe, one must be able to "see" or "hear". This seeing and hearing comes primarily not by human faculty, but by God-given grace and revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, human intelligence apart from the Holy Spirit can never attain the understanding of the things of God. Are we to believe that God is unable to communicate with infants, and infants with God? The Bible clearly states that we can only please God by faith. Correct? Is faith just mental assent to something spiritual, or is it something more?

The Bible also states that all men, by their conscience alone, know that God exists. This would include infants. They are born with a conscience.

Now, their minds are much less capable of grasping the world around us because of their infantile minds, but the nature of fallen Adam is still within them. So, if sight is first needed in order to believe, (Joh 3:3) and in order to be saved you must believe, (Joh 1:12) then this must also include infants because of their inherited sinful nature that requires atonement. We know this from the simple fact that God will not tolerate sin in His presence.

Now for Revelation 20:12 -

If babies are so innocent, then why passages such as these:

1Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.


You see? Your view just simply does not hold water. Your view makes the following passage of no importance whatsoever:

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Aenon  (OP)

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11/15/2010 11:43 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
If an adult has an IQ of a child and cannot make a real choice that means Hes here so that others can see the glory of the Lord.

All children that pass away up to the age of accountability go to the Lord.

Puberty until about age 20 is when the big fight between a person and the Lord occurs.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1154175


There are so many errors in what you say. Little truth, but mostly error. First read my post above this one concerning infants. Now, let us not forget that the Bible clearly teaches that God is the one who numbers the days of a person's life even before they're born:

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

etc, and so on.


Therefore, if an infant dies, God ordained it's death; same with all mortal men. Consider the following:

Luke 12:6, 7 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Mathew 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.


Last Edited by Aenon on 11/15/2010 11:47 AM
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
no such thing as afterlife, it should be painfully obvoius to anyone willing to let go of their own ego.
Rex Khristos

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11/15/2010 11:50 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
unrepentant infants burn in hell.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 835530

children
"And though I believe in the ineffable glory of God, and though I might have experienced the undeniable reality of the Deity, and though I may know the secrets of the ages, these do not fulfill the Love in my heart. But to Change and Be and Do and dissolve both the subject of my person and the object of my God into the fluency of Empirical Providence. The Way, the Truth, and the Life."
Rex Khristos

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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
no such thing as afterlife, it should be painfully obvoius to anyone willing to let go of their own ego.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1130033

And everyone including me who's had and NDE will tell you different.
"And though I believe in the ineffable glory of God, and though I might have experienced the undeniable reality of the Deity, and though I may know the secrets of the ages, these do not fulfill the Love in my heart. But to Change and Be and Do and dissolve both the subject of my person and the object of my God into the fluency of Empirical Providence. The Way, the Truth, and the Life."
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 11:52 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
If the Child does not accept Jesus, straight to Hell and burn for Millions of years!

pope2
Pakal

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11/15/2010 11:54 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
reincarnation. reincarnation proof is all around you... the wheels of karma balances everything out... everything is balanced... everything just IS... if YOU want thigns to change- BE that change- if not- u better smile n go with thhe flow of the world..
 Quoting: Truthseekr


great quote!!! Thanks truthseekr!!

peace
Rex Khristos

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11/15/2010 11:57 AM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
If the Child does not accept Jesus, straight to Hell and burn for Millions of years!

pope2
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 930345

delish
"And though I believe in the ineffable glory of God, and though I might have experienced the undeniable reality of the Deity, and though I may know the secrets of the ages, these do not fulfill the Love in my heart. But to Change and Be and Do and dissolve both the subject of my person and the object of my God into the fluency of Empirical Providence. The Way, the Truth, and the Life."
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2010 11:22 PM
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Re: "Infants" - Heaven or Hell?
If an adult has an IQ of a child and cannot make a real choice that means Hes here so that others can see the glory of the Lord.

All children that pass away up to the age of accountability go to the Lord.

Puberty until about age 20 is when the big fight between a person and the Lord occurs.


There are so many errors in what you say. Little truth, but mostly error. First read my post above this one concerning infants. Now, let us not forget that the Bible clearly teaches that God is the one who numbers the days of a person's life even before they're born:

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

etc, and so on.


Therefore, if an infant dies, God ordained it's death; same with all mortal men. Consider the following:

Luke 12:6, 7 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Mathew 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

 Quoting: Aenon



Point out the errors please.





GLP