~*~*I Keep/Guard the 7th Day Sabbath...Ask Me A Question*~*~

Deuteronomy 12:8 “Do not do as we are doing here today – each one doing whatever is right in his own eyes

Judges 17:6 In those days there was no sovereign in Yisrael – everyone did what was right in his own eyes

Jdg 21:25 In those days there was no sovereign in Yisrael – everyone did what was right in his own eyes

Sounds about right. Nothing new under the sun.

See what I mean? Ms T could not help but to step in and 'spit" on your behalf- this is your cue to thank her

Thanks for the kind words, Phy! Don't put me on any pedestal though. I am not afraid of heights, but the fall can smart a bit. I am just a woman seeking closer relationship to her Father through her Beloved....and hoping to journey with others along the way.

The part that is most confusing to many is that Sandi and I understand that we are not carbon copies of one another and appreciate each other for the unique individual we each are. We may be on different paths, but that doesn't mean we cannot walk a while together and maybe grow from the experience. If more would do the same with ones that are not identical to themselves, how much richer in truth might we all be?

Oh look at you go. Trying to get the last word for its own sake, and not because you have anything worthwhile or intelligent to add.

Do give us your wisdom on the topic of the thread. We're all ears.

Oh, wait, you don't have anything to add, you just like doing cookies in the neighbor's yard so you can point at how bad and evil they are when they don't appreciate your efforts at destruction and derailing.

How positively embicilic of you!

The wisdom was added in many posts- you are just too angry to see them. Even lady wolf has added to the wisdom that you ignore.

You have no idea what that comment means to be, Sandi. Your words set me free from a burden. Your heart is so much more than many will ever even try to see.

As if YOU personally are his "schoolmaster"? Who assigned you the role of the Ruach Ha'Kodesh? Not YHWH, I can tell you that much. Spiteful exhortation is NEVER from YHWH, that is from your own dark heart...proud much? Exhortation that is from YHWH and given through the brethren is ALWAYS to encourage and uplift, not to throw past "sins" in your face. The Pharisees must be proud to count you among their number. You are a card carrying member, right?

Tit for tat. Guess "we" could do the same for you and your little friends, but then I would be handing over control of MY thread to you by default. Buh-bye.

And that was a veiled insight into what LadyWolf brings to the thread.

For the record, AC...771, AC...624, and AC...148 have been banned as trolls.

Continue....

Last Edited by PalmOfDeborah on 10/17/2010 07:14 PM

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Let's see, which definition of fulfil works.

From Webster's
Verb 1. fulfil - put in effect; "carry out a task"; "execute the decision of the people"; "He actioned the operation"
Synonyms: accomplish, carry out, carry through, fulfill, action, execute
2. fulfil - fill or meet a want or need
Synonyms: fulfill, satisfy, meet, fill
3. fulfil - fulfil the requirements or expectations of
Synonyms: live up to, satisfy, fulfill


and Strong's


G4137

plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.


Let's replace fulfil with end.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to bring them to an end.

Now does that make sense? Is prophecy ended too?

It's interesting to note that one of the definitions of destroy is to bring to an end.

De`stroy´
v. t. 1. To unbuild; to pull or tear down; to separate virulently into its constituent parts; to break up the structure and organic existence of; to demolish.
[imp. & p. p. Destroyed ; p. pr. & vb. n. Destroying.]
But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves.
- Ex. xxxiv. 13.
2. To ruin; to bring to naught; to put an end to; to annihilate; to consume.
I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation.
- Jer. xii. 17.
3. To put an end to the existence, prosperity, or beauty of; to kill.
If him by force he can destroy, or, worse,
By some false guile pervert.
- Milton

So, end can't possibly be the correct definition usage.

Let's try one of the other definitions of fulfil that is both in the dictionary and Strong's - satisfy/live up to.

Think not that I am come to destroy (put an end to) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy (put an end to), but to satisy/live up to them.

In order for Yahoshua to have lived a righteous, perfect life, He had to perfectly keep ALL the laws of the Torah. If not, He would not have been perfect and He would not have fulfilled prophecy.

Here is one of the laws that He would have kept PERFECTLY.

Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen


confirm
Verb 1. confirm - establish or strengthen as with new evidence or facts; "his story confirmed my doubts"; "The evidence supports the defendant"
Synonyms: affirm, corroborate, substantiate, support, sustain
2. confirm - strengthen or make more firm; "The witnesses confirmed the victim's account"
Synonyms: reassert
3. confirm - make more firm; "Confirm thy soul in self-control!"
4. confirm - as of a person to a position; "The Senate confirmed the President's candidate for Secretary of Defense"
5. confirm - administer the rite of confirmation to; "the children were confirmed in their mother's faith"

The biggest problem with this discussion, and I've kind of tried to stay out of it... is that it's being yanked out of context.

Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine. Christians get bent out of shape when anyone else does it, but they feel so totally free to do it themselves.

The disciples are asking about the end times. They are specifically, and without any possibility of misinterpretation, asking about the FINAL coming of JESUS, NOT about Jesus' death on the cross.

They are asking about the end times.

Jesus says he didn't come to abolish, but to fulfill.

The FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW is the SECOND coming of Jesus, the END OF DAYS.

Jesus says that not a jot or a tittle will pass away until ALL IS FULFILLED and he is speaking unquestionably and without a doubt about THE END TIMES.

Now, I'm sorry, but how the heck does the argument of "fulfill" and its EXACT usage per that passage really relate to anything?

It does NOT, because they're discussing THE END TIMES.

No doubt, it DOES mean abolish, end, etc.

Because the end of time has a strange effect of ending things, wouldn't you think?

I wanted to post a few commandments regarding "Remembering what YHWH has done". This should not be a divider between us....but, alas, some will try to make it so...while others will be enriched by it.


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Exodus 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand YHWH brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.

Do you remember the day YHWH brought you out of your own "Egypt"? out of the "house of our own bondage"?
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Deuteronomy 4:9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;
Deuteronomy 4:10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before YHWH thy Elohim in Horeb, when YHWH said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

Do you remember your "Mount Horeb" moment? when you realized who YHWH is and who you are in comparison? and realized that YHWH saves, through YHSWH? Do you teach the next generation of the mighty things YHWH has done and that He still saves through Yahoshua?
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Deuteronomy 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that YHWH thy Elohim brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore YHWH thy Elohim commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day.

Do you remember that you were a slave to sin? Do you remember that the mighty hand and stretched out arm is YHSWH, your Messiah? And do you remember that He is "Lord of the Sabbath"? Are you keeping it?

Last Edited by PalmOfDeborah on 10/17/2010 07:51 PM

These verses are from the Sermon on the Mount. No disciples asking anything here. Only mention of end times is saying that not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until heaven and earth pass away. That's a time BEYOND the 'end times'/ return of Yahoshua.

If you read further in the passage, he is describing HOW to truly keep the laws - the spirit of the law rather than simply the letter. Thus, confirming/making strongeer the Torah.

The Word of YHWH is SUPPOSE to divide.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

This statement is represented in two places, Matt 5 and Luke 21.

In the Matt 5 statement, it is stated in such a way that argument is possible.

However, in Luke 21, there is no argument. They are discussing the end times, and this conversation takes place:


29He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32"I tell you the truth, this generation [more correctly, race] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."


Jesus here discusses AS A WHOLE, what to do with the laws:

16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Last Edited by Sandi_T on 10/17/2010 08:13 PM

The point being, given the close correlations in the accounts, they're probably the same time frame/statement.

Regardless, looking between the two, it's VERY clear that Jesus is NOT at any point saying that the Mosaic law is to be set aside.



If you want to argue, essentially, you should argue about what is really said where it says "Till heaven and earth pass."


Because arguing about "fulfill" and its accurate meaning is pretty pointless when he follows it up with "UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOTHING WILL PASS AWAY FROM THE LAW."

Ya see what I'm trying to say here?

snip

Last Edited by PalmOfDeborah on 10/17/2010 09:00 PM

The bible is at least sometimes honest about its real purpose. Destroying families and sowing division and war.

Gotcha! Thanks

I was continuing a rebuttal to a post by Lady Wolf where she said that fulfil means to end.

I think you know that's not what is meant by these verses.

Calling someone out on their bad behavior is NOT "random hateful attacks", sir.



Since when is piety a negative thing?



I've defended the "Body of Christ" on this thread. I'm afraid you're painting me with someone else's brush, sir.



Incorrect, I didn't sense "hate" ... but I assure you that it certainly wasn't "pointed out to me out of love.", now was it?




Maybe not to you, but it is to me. I really don't like having near constant battles internally between my "fleshly, self righteous anger" and "maintaining the light to shine as a beacon to others." Especially when I publicly admit my own responsibility for those moments, while watching everyone else dodge their own share.





I've shown no "hate" on this thread. None whatsoever. If you're detecting any, possibly you should consider if, in fact, you're merely reflecting your own ego onto others.



Well, thank goodness I have *your* approval. Otherwise I might have to cut myself to feel better about life.

You know it IS what's meant by those verses. You just admitted it. You just stated very clearly and (refreshingly) honestly IT IS INTENDED TO DIVIDE.

Don't back out on us now.

That's EXACTLY what it means. It says it bluntly and in so many words.

Don't try to sidestep it after acknowledging it.

Don't cut yourself!!! Nobody said it would be easy!! Hang in there!!

And you were doing so well!

You really are doing well. For what it's worth.

Divide the truth from the error. In this respect, it can and will cause division within families.

I disagreed with your statement as a whole inregard to these verses. Spiritual division not about encouraging wars etc.

I used to be like you - troll threads like these - ridicule and make some of the same arguements against YHWH's Law, Feasts etc. - what I didn't realize is that the seeds of truth were being planted. The very fact that you are still reading this thread tells me that your heart is opening up, regardless of the words you post - the seed has been planted.

Praise Yah for His loving patience with us!

Last Edited by Mrs. Smith on 10/17/2010 08:54 PM

Right. Because the 'sword' is about "spiritual" matters, and there have been ZERO wars or killing in the name of this religion.

You can disagree all you want, but it's there in black and white, and the proof is in the history in this case.

It has brought wars, and famines, and genocides through its long and brutal history.

Division is EXACTLY what it's all about. It sets humanity away from God. It sets families apart from each other. It destroys and even abolishes other cultures, much less dividing them.

But even pretending it means 'sword' and dividing of families in the "spiritual" sense, it was, let's be honest here, heartbreakingly prophetic in a very REAL and PHYSICAL sense.

and it is why I say, choose this day whom you will serve.........easy answer. pick one.

Because as history shows, if you don't choose the "Good Christian Way," they WILL eventually kill you.

Jesus says as much, "bring a sword."

No difference here between that and "convert or die."

Which one was the "religion of peace" again?